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Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Old 06-25-10, 11:24 PM
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Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...-pain-24-weeks

Human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks, study says
Finding in major review of scientific evidence strikes blow to those seeking to reduce upper time limit for abortion

The human foetus feels no pain before 24 weeks, according to a major review of scientific evidence published today.

The connections in the foetal brain are not fully formed in that time, nor is the foetus conscious, according to the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.


The findings of two reports commissioned by the Department of Health strike a blow to those seeking to reduce the upper time limit for having an abortion, currently at 24 weeks.

The studies suggest that late abortions, permitted for serious abnormalities or risks to a woman's health, do not result in foetal suffering because of increasing evidence that the chemical environment in the uterus induces "a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation".

The review of existing evidence, as well as guidance to health professionals and information for mothers, was instigated on the recommendation of the Commons health select committee two years ago. Efforts in the Commons to reduce abortion limits to 22 or 20 weeks were defeated in 2008. The reports will hamper campaigners' efforts for an early return to the topic, despite David Cameron having suggested before the election that that might happen.

The report on pain perception says: "It was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the foetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

Even after 24 weeks, "it is difficult to say that the foetus experiences pain because this, like all other experiences, develops post-natally along with memory and other learned behaviours".

The second report, into conditions where a pregnancy might be terminated for foetal abnormality, says: "... it is unrealistic to produce a definitive list of conditions that constitute 'serious' handicap since accurate diagnostic techniques are as yet unavailable".

This could be seen as a setback for those who wanted greater clarity on the issue after reports of late abortions for correctable conditions such as cleft palate.

Anti-abortion campaigners said the work did not challenge other arguments for a lower limit.

Josephine Quintavalle, of Comment on Reproductive Ethics, said: "Performing abortion humanely does not justify the fact that you are terminating a human life."

The health department said: "We welcome any report that adds to our understanding of foetal development."
This study might stir up some shit here in the States also.
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Old 06-25-10, 11:59 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Uh, this article seems to be actually about the "foetus", goenius.
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Old 06-26-10, 01:57 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Well, I guess we can't call it cruel and unusual punishment when we do our baby killing. That ought to shut those hippies up.
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Old 06-26-10, 03:23 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Also mentioned in the study, but not included in the article, is the recommendation that no matter at what period in the fetus' development, it is advisable to use wire coat hangers and not plastic. And no, it doesn't matter how cheaply you can get the plastic ones at Big Lots.
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Old 06-26-10, 09:01 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Strange, I have been arguing for the 24 week cutoff for almost 30 years based on fetal brain studies that go back that far. Not only because of pain but because one can say 24 weeks is the earliest "brain birth" can occur. I've posted it many times. See:

http://rogerbissell.com/id11jj.html (I've probably posted this link about a dozen times.)

(The only difference dating from that article is that further research, a few years later, set the time at weeks 24-28 rather than 28-32; that time has been settled now for quite a while so the British study is a confirmation, not anything new).

Last edited by movielib; 06-26-10 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 06-26-10, 09:16 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

The study means what as far as abortion is concerned?
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Old 06-26-10, 10:06 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
The study means what as far as abortion is concerned?
My interpretation is that it means there is not a functioning brain before 24 weeks of gestation. Human life ends at brain death and, again, my interpretation, it begins at brain birth. So abortion is permissible up to 24 weeks (later only if there is a legitimate threat to the health or life of the pregnant woman).
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Old 06-26-10, 10:33 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Patients and the elderly in comas feel no pain either.

We should kill them.

I mean after all it'd be convenient for us, save us money, and eliminate what would have been a bad existence for them anyway. So we can rationalize our murder as a good thing... if we're really, really stupid I guess. But let's face it, the majority of people are just that - really, really stupid.

I see it as a win/win!

I bet if we thought about it we could come up with all kinds of human beings that wouldn't feel pain if a spike was rammed in their brain, whisked around to stir it up, and then vacuum the brain out. Hell with the proper application of Fentanyl we could be a killin' left and right and it would be good!
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Old 06-26-10, 10:52 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
Patients and the elderly in comas feel no pain either.

We should kill them.

I mean after all it'd be convenient for us, save us money, and eliminate what would have been a bad existence for them anyway. So we can rationalize our murder as a good thing... if we're really, really stupid I guess. But let's face it, the majority of people are just that - really, really stupid.

I see it as a win/win!

I bet if we thought about it we could come up with all kinds of human beings that wouldn't feel pain if a spike was rammed in their brain, whisked around to stir it up, and then vacuum the brain out. Hell with the proper application of Fentanyl we could be a killin' left and right and it would be good!
If you're talking to me:

As I said, it's more than just not feeling pain. In fact, that has never been the criterion for me.
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Old 06-26-10, 11:37 AM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
Patients and the elderly in comas feel no pain either.

We should kill them.

I mean after all it'd be convenient for us, save us money, and eliminate what would have been a bad existence for them anyway. So we can rationalize our murder as a good thing... if we're really, really stupid I guess. But let's face it, the majority of people are just that - really, really stupid.

I see it as a win/win!

I bet if we thought about it we could come up with all kinds of human beings that wouldn't feel pain if a spike was rammed in their brain, whisked around to stir it up, and then vacuum the brain out. Hell with the proper application of Fentanyl we could be a killin' left and right and it would be good!
Don't forget all the people walking around who don't even have a brain.
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Old 06-26-10, 12:31 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Also mentioned in the study, but not included in the article, is the recommendation that no matter at what period in the fetus' development, it is advisable to use wire coat hangers and not plastic. And no, it doesn't matter how cheaply you can get the plastic ones at Big Lots.
Love the ending qualifier.
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Old 06-26-10, 12:32 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
I'm pro-abortion, so this is good news to read.

Yes. Pro-abortion. I said it. Go ahead and do your little freak-out, all you "pro-lifers".
We anti-earth coalition members do not object.
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Old 06-26-10, 04:23 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Strange, I have been arguing for the 24 week cutoff for almost 30 years based on fetal brain studies that go back that far. Not only because of pain but because one can say 24 weeks is the earliest "brain birth" can occur. I've posted it many times. See:

http://rogerbissell.com/id11jj.html (I've probably posted this link about a dozen times.)

(The only difference dating from that article is that further research, a few years later, set the time at weeks 24-28 rather than 28-32; that time has been settled now for quite a while so the British study is a confirmation, not anything new).
Your posts on the subject were the first to come to mind when I read that article.
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Old 06-26-10, 04:31 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
The study means what as far as abortion is concerned?
Much of the common anti-abortion rhetoric focuses on the physicality of the fetus including, frankly, that it can feel pain. If the results of this study come to be accepted as fact, it removes some wind from the pro-life sails.
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Old 06-26-10, 04:54 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Much of the common anti-abortion rhetoric focuses on the physicality of the fetus including, frankly, that it can feel pain. If the results of this study come to be accepted as fact, it removes some wind from the pro-life sails.
It would seem to also bolster the claim that abortions should not be allowed after 24 weeks. Abortion proponents will not like that BECAUSE IT LEADS TO BACK ALLEY ABORTIONS....BOOGA BOOGA!

In the end, it has zero effect, imo. Some will still want it illegal from conception, and some will still want it legal when the baby's head is sticking out.
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Old 06-26-10, 04:59 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
In the end, it has zero effect, imo. Some will still want it illegal from conception, and some will still want it legal when the baby's head is sticking out.
I think you're right. Most on both sides are immune to rational arguments.
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Old 06-26-10, 05:25 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

So, I'm not called a babykiller anymore, but instead, a babywithnobrainskiller.

Not much difference, IMO.
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Old 06-26-10, 05:36 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

The good news in all this? We'll never see a human fetus writing emo poetry!
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Old 06-26-10, 06:38 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
I'm pro-abortion, so this is good news to read.

Yes. Pro-abortion. I said it. Go ahead and do your little freak-out, all you "pro-lifers".
At least you're honest.

Most pro-abortion folks try and hide behind the euphemism - pro-choice.
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Old 06-26-10, 06:39 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Much of the common anti-abortion rhetoric focuses on the physicality of the fetus including, frankly, that it can feel pain. If the results of this study come to be accepted as fact, it removes some wind from the pro-life sails.
Therefore if an individual is comotose and doesn't feel pain, we have a right to end his/her life?
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Old 06-26-10, 06:54 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Therefore if an individual is comotose and doesn't feel pain, we have a right to end his/her life?
Well, maybe. Depends on what he/she said in Living Will and Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare, and the medical outlook for recovery.

Repeat after me, and pay a lawyer a lot of money to write it down properly:
"I don't want to be a vegetable."

On the other hand, if you prefer to be a vegetable, you can demand that modern medicine do everything inhumanly possible to keep you alive.

I think more properly, that person has the right to leave instructions for that situation and we have an obligation to carry out those wishes.
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Old 06-26-10, 06:55 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Therefore if an individual is comotose and doesn't feel pain, we have a right to end his/her life?
Your ethically challenging question...isn't. A 20 week old fetus is not an "individual." It has never been conscious.
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Old 06-26-10, 06:59 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

When does a fetus 'become conscious?'
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Old 06-26-10, 07:18 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
When does a fetus 'become conscious?'
I dunno, maybe when it can feel pain.
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Old 06-26-10, 07:38 PM
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Re: Study: Human fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks

Life begins at 40. All others are subject to abortion in my book. Well, I plan to have that opinion codified at the end of the year, anyway. It would suck to get caught up in a loophole.
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