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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 05-11-10, 03:43 PM   #126
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
"Nazi-like behavior" can only cover mass murder? Odd, the histories of the Third Reich I've read include many other forms of thuggery.
Sorry, I was presuming that we were using the reasonable recollection of Nazi behavior - the 12 million innocent lives that were exterminated. You are absolutely correct, he could have been referring to the lesser-recollected but equally relevant Nazi Behavior of wearing matching uniforms, in which case, yes, they were most definitely engaged in Nazi Behavior.
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Old 05-11-10, 03:46 PM   #127
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
in this case they clearly announced themselves as police before they entered
I could stand outside someone's door and yell the same thing. Yelling loudly while brandishing a gun doesn't seem like a valid form of identification to me.
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Old 05-11-10, 03:51 PM   #128
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by wildcatlh View Post
You would be correct.

Ryan Frederick
Cory Maye
I heard of the first one but the Maye story is insane. I think these cops should go back to doing what they are really hired to do, revenue enhancment.
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Old 05-11-10, 03:52 PM   #129
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

if i was a cop and had a pit bull growling at me in that situation i'd shoot it too. safety first
Would you burst into somebody's home and 4 seconds after entering shoot a Corgi that posed no threat whatsoever?

And a pit bull growling and doing nothing else is not cause to open fire in my opinion. A growling dog also poses no threat. An attacking dog is another matter completely. Since there is no video evidence of what the pit bull was doing I really can't criticize the police for killing the dog, but if all it was doing was growling then they were definitely in the wrong. Like I said, a growling pit bull is not a threat. However, if the pit bull was attacking or showed signs of imminent attack then by all means shoot away. An attacking pit bull is just as dangerous as a guy with a gun.

Like I said before, I really don't have a problem with the killing of the pit bull because I didn't see what was happening but the possibility of the officers being in danger by the pit bull was definitely there. My problem was with them bursting in and IMMEDIATELY shooting a Corgi that without a doubt was not a threat in any way.
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Old 05-11-10, 03:54 PM   #130
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by whoopdido View Post
Would you burst into somebody's home and 4 seconds after entering shoot a Corgi that posed no threat whatsoever?

And a pit bull growling and doing nothing else is not cause to open fire in my opinion. A growling dog also poses no threat. An attacking dog is another matter completely. Since there is no video evidence of what the pit bull was doing I really can't criticize the police for killing the dog, but if all it was doing was growling then they were definitely in the wrong. Like I said, a growling pit bull is not a threat. However, if the pit bull was attacking or showed signs of imminent attack then by all means shoot away. An attacking pit bull is just as dangerous as a guy with a gun.

Like I said before, I really don't have a problem with the killing of the pit bull because I didn't see what was happening but the possibility of the officers being in danger by the pit bull was definitely there. My problem was with them bursting in and IMMEDIATELY shooting a Corgi that without a doubt was not a threat in any way.
I take it you've never seen Cowboy Beebop?
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Old 05-11-10, 03:58 PM   #131
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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I take it you've never seen Cowboy Beebop?
No I haven't. Did a Corgi kill a SWAT team member?
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Old 05-11-10, 04:04 PM   #132
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
in this case they clearly announced themselves as police before they entered
Have you never heard of people falsely claiming to be police to gain entry to a premises? Really? If the occupant of the property didn't hear the brief introductory knock that would also raise questions.
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Old 05-11-10, 04:07 PM   #133
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by arminius
Sorry but yelling "this is the police" is not good enough. Anyone can do that. If cops are shot it should be just the part of doing business in this manner. The home owner should have no more liability than the cops breaking in. If they are shot while breaking into the wrong house there is no "I'm just an innocent bystander", "Tuff shit fella".
Sorry, but it is good enough, whether you like it or not. Uniformed police acting on a warrant who identify themselves as such have a right to be there, and the homeowner has to submit, simple as that. If somebody tries to use force against them, they'll be met with force and/or prosecution. You aren't going to win in that circumstance. If they kill you, they're acting under legal authority. If you kill them, you'll be prosecuted, and the burden will be on you to assert percieved self defense at trial and show that perception was reasonable.

If you want to posit that fake police raids are such a prevalent problem (as some here do) that they cast doubt on whether police are actually police, then let's see the outcry for cracking down on police impersonators.

Some people here, I suspect, get so wound up about their distaste for the war on drugs that they don't realize the laws are universally applicable to all criminal laws. You can severely restrict the police's ability to enforce drug laws by making warrants tougher to obtain or more restrictive to serve, but you're going to similarly impact murder, rape, robbery, etc prosecutions as well.

WRT the corgi: I'm not sure anybody knows how it got shot. It's very possible the corgi was next to/under/behind the pit bull, and a bullet just passed through the put bull. I have a tough time believing anybody would purposefully shoot a corgi or that a corgi would survive a direct gunshot from somebody trying to kill it.
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Old 05-11-10, 04:11 PM   #134
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by BradJ View Post
Sorry, I was presuming that we were using the reasonable recollection of Nazi behavior - the 12 million innocent lives that were exterminated. You are absolutely correct, he could have been referring to the lesser-recollected but equally relevant Nazi Behavior of wearing matching uniforms, in which case, yes, they were most definitely engaged in Nazi Behavior.
Nazi behaviour seems to be used mostly to describe the removal of rights and an overly controlling government (witness signs depicting Obama as a Nazi). Hence "little Hitlers" being people who have been given a tiny dose of power in their otherwise pointless lives and are now going to make the most of it. The expression doesn't imply they're about to wipe out 12,000 before sunrise, just that they're gonna impose their power on you as much as they can get away with.

PS: Cowboy Bebop is fantastic. Check it out if you haven't seen it yet. The title credits and accompanying music are some of the best ever created.
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Old 05-11-10, 04:30 PM   #135
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Sorry, but it is good enough, whether you like it or not. Uniformed police acting on a warrant who identify themselves as such have a right to be there, and the homeowner has to submit, simple as that. If somebody tries to use force against them, they'll be met with force and/or prosecution. You aren't going to win in that circumstance. If they kill you, they're acting under legal authority. If you kill them, you'll be prosecuted, and the burden will be on you to assert percieved self defense at trial and show that perception was reasonable
So a double standard with regards to the laws is a good thing? I'd expect that the police, who are trained and armed far better than any non-officer, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the public with respect to the use of force against a perceived threat of harm, not a lower one.

Quote:
Some people here, I suspect, get so wound up about their distaste for the war on drugs that they don't realize the laws are universally applicable to all criminal laws. You can severely restrict the police's ability to enforce drug laws by making warrants tougher to obtain or more restrictive to serve, but you're going to similarly impact murder, rape, robbery, etc prosecutions as well.
The issue is that these types of raids seem reserved exclusively for drug warrant service. They seem to get along fine with traditional warrant service for other crimes.

Quote:
WRT the corgi: I'm not sure anybody knows how it got shot. It's very possible the corgi was next to/under/behind the pit bull, and a bullet just passed through the put bull. I have a tough time believing anybody would purposefully shoot a corgi or that a corgi would survive a direct gunshot from somebody trying to kill it.
Then you're being purposefully naive. But, FWIW, I actually agree with you that the shooting of the Corgi was likely an accident.
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Old 05-11-10, 05:18 PM   #136
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Despite the hyperbole in this thread, it's become quite clear just how frightening our country can be at times.
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Old 05-11-10, 05:42 PM   #137
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Radley Balko with a follow-up article on the video, including comments from his conversation with the wife of the man arrested in the raid.

(linked due to length; wanted to highlight the paragraphs below)

Quote:
According to surveys of police departments conducted by University of Eastern Kentucky criminologist Peter Kraska, we've seen about a 1,500 percent increase in SWAT deployments in this country since the early 1980s. The vast majority of that increase has been to serve search warrants on people suspected of nonviolent drug crimes. SWAT teams are inherently violent. In some ways they're an infliction of punishment before conviction. This is why they should only be used in situations where the suspect presents an immediate threat to others. In that case, SWAT teams use violence to defuse an already violent situation. When they're used to serve drug warrants for consensual crimes, however, SWAT tactics create violence where no violence was present before. Even when everything goes right in such a raid, breaking into the home of someone merely suspected of a nonviolent, consensual crime is an inappropriate use of force in a free society.

The overwhelmingly negative reaction to the video is interesting. Clearly, a very large majority of the people who have seen it are disturbed by it. But this has been going on for 30 years. We've reached the point where police have no qualms about a using heavily armed police force trained in military tactics to serve a search warrant on a suspected nonviolent marijuana offender. And we didn't get here by accident. The war on drugs has been escalating and militarizing for a generation. What's most disturbing about that video isn't the violence depicted in it, but that such violence has become routine.
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Old 05-11-10, 05:49 PM   #138
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by wildcatlh View Post
Radley Balko with a follow-up article on the video, including comments from his conversation with the wife of the man arrested in the raid.

(linked due to length)
Ok, according to the article, apparently a bullet ricocheted and that's how the corgi got hit. So, like at least one other poster said, it does look like the corgi getting shot was an accident. However, I keep going back to the time it took for the the officer to fire his weapon. It still was only 4 seconds, which means he bursted in, saw a pit bull and immediately fired. Apparently that bullet ricocheted and hit the non dangerous corgi. I don't really understand why it took another probably 30 seconds until they fired again to actually kill the pit bull though. But in any event, bursting in and immediately firing is reprehensible in my book. What if the bullet ricocheted and hit the 7 yr old girl rather than the corgi?

4 seconds is not enough time to assess the situation and come to the conclusion that it was necessary to fire his weapon.
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Old 05-11-10, 05:53 PM   #139
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

So in 10 years are we going to be seeing videos like these showing SWAT teams arresting people for downloading music or copying Blu Ray's?
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Old 05-11-10, 06:00 PM   #140
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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I would volunteer my time to go to animal shelters and kill every last pit bull that they have.

These are weapons - not pets
A friend of mine has a pit bull. It's one of the sweetest, most friendly dogs I've ever interacted with.

Pit bulls raised to be dangerous can be very dangerous. Not all pit bulls are raised to be dangerous.
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Old 05-11-10, 06:08 PM   #141
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by wildcatlh View Post
So a double standard with regards to the laws is a good thing? I'd expect that the police, who are trained and armed far better than any non-officer, should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the public with respect to the use of force against a perceived threat of harm, not a lower one.
There's no double standard for mistaken self defense. It simply doesn't apply in the situation where police try to serve a warrant, the homeowner shoots at them, and they return fire. That's actual self-defense on behalf of police, and it would be a justified shooting.

Mistaken self-defense would apply to police in a scenario such as when somebody points a realistic toy gun at the police and they, believing it to be a real gun, shoot the person. The question is whether the shooter subjectively believed he was in danger and whether that subjective belief was objectively reasonable. Even if you could convince a jury that the person subjectively believed the people at his door in uniform claiming to be police were not police, you'd have to convince a jury that belief was reasonable. Away from internet fantasy land where according to some that scenario plays out every 15 minutes, I suspect that would be a hard sell to the jury. And that's if the homeowner survives the actual incident, which he's probably not going to.

From your Radley Balko link, it appears the Corgi was not a target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoopdido
It still was only 4 seconds, which means he bursted in, saw a pit bull and immediately fired. Apparently that bullet ricocheted and hit the non dangerous corgi. I don't really understand why it took another probably 30 seconds until they fired again to actually kill the pit bull though. But in any event, bursting in and immediately firing is reprehensible in my book. What if the bullet ricocheted and hit the 7 yr old girl rather than the corgi?

4 seconds is not enough time to assess the situation and come to the conclusion that it was necessary to fire his weapon.
4 seconds is an eternity. It takes less than a second to realize "person with gun!" or "charging pit bull!" and about another second to draw, aim,and fire. If you see a threat and can't react in 4 seconds, you're dead. Jesus, have somebody point their finger at you like a gun, count to 4, then react. That's forever.

In the video, they fired one shot at 50 seconds, and the dog immediately went into yelping. Then they fired 3 more shots at around 1:04, which ended the yelping (and, I presume, killed the pit bull). If the dog was wounded but not incapacitated by the first shot, it's now even more dangerous as a wounded animal.

WRT to the RIAA posts, I doubt you'd see SWAT teams for those, unless music pirates started to arm themselves to ward off rival music pirates and police. It's not exactly the same situation.
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Old 05-11-10, 07:54 PM   #142
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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WRT to the RIAA posts, I doubt you'd see SWAT teams for those, unless music pirates started to arm themselves to ward off rival music pirates and police. It's not exactly the same situation.
Per Wikipedia (so obviously I take the number with a grain of salt),approximately 25% of the adults in the US own a firearm. So you're probably going to have a similar percentage of file sharers who would be raided where there's a firearm in the house. That's a 1 in 4 shot. Do police take that risk? Per the Balko article, in raids that "go bad" (or that receive media attention), there are weapons found 10-20% of the time. So again. Do police take the risk, or do they use similar reasoning to justify such tactics?
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Old 05-11-10, 08:07 PM   #143
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Just watched the original video at the start of this thread. So does that constitute a successful operation? Taking a joint off the streets. They could have fired all the swat guys and just hired a hobo to go over there and beg for a joint. The town would have saved money and the homeowner could have written it off as a donation on his taxes. And the obese swat guys can join the army if they want to break things and kill people.
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Old 05-11-10, 08:37 PM   #144
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Just watched the original video at the start of this thread. So does that constitute a successful operation? Taking a joint off the streets. They could have fired all the swat guys and just hired a hobo to go over there and beg for a joint. The town would have saved money and the homeowner could have written it off as a donation on his taxes. And the obese swat guys can join the army if they want to break things and kill people.
You do realize that they didn't go there for 1 joint, right? If so, then that kinda makes your post pointless.
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Old 05-11-10, 08:48 PM   #145
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by wildcatlh View Post
Per the Balko article, they find weapons in the SWAT raids for drug warrant service approximately 10 to 20 percent of the time. Per Wikipedia (so obviously I take the number with a grain of salt), approximately 25% of the adults in the US own a firearm. So it's believable that a similar percentage of file sharers would be armed as "drug dealers". So why wouldn't it be justified?
Not to deny anything Balko says as the god-given gospel, but his claim was
Quote:
Surveys conducted by newspapers around the country after one of these raids goes bad have found that police only find weapons of any kind somewhere between 10-20 percent of the time.
So not only does he not give a specific source or numbers for that assertion, but the group doing the "research" was "newspapers around the country." I'm going to go with the overwhelming experience of law enforcement and the courts over the past 40 years on this one. In case that's not enough, I'm sure other sources could be found. Here's one study's results interviewing incarcerated inmates and comparing drug sold to gun ownership:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table 2 from that study
Type of drug sold : Percent carrying guns
Crack, any : 65%
Other drugs, not crack : 49%
Sold drugs, but not in year before incarceration : 38%
Did not sell drugs : 16%
Never mind the fact that the gun ownership's primary purpose with drug dealers, as I stated, is directly related to the offense they're committing. They keep and own guns, often illegally, because of other dealers and law enforcement. Citing gun ownerships for the general US population is irrelevant when talking about music pirates unless those pirates own guns specifically to enhance and protect their illicit trade and unless they've shown a willingness to use the guns in furtherance of that trade.

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Old 05-11-10, 09:09 PM   #146
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

"Prohibition is an awful flop.
We like it.
It can't stop what it's meant to stop.
We like it.
It's left a trail of graft and slime
It don't prohibit worth a dime
It's filled our land with vice and crime,
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Old 05-11-10, 09:16 PM   #147
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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4 seconds is an eternity. It takes less than a second to realize "person with gun!" or "charging pit bull!" and about another second to draw, aim,and fire. If you see a threat and can't react in 4 seconds, you're dead. Jesus, have somebody point their finger at you like a gun, count to 4, then react. That's forever.

In the video, they fired one shot at 50 seconds, and the dog immediately went into yelping. Then they fired 3 more shots at around 1:04, which ended the yelping (and, I presume, killed the pit bull). If the dog was wounded but not incapacitated by the first shot, it's now even more dangerous as a wounded animal.
Oh please. That may be true if they truly did walk into a dangerous situation, but they didn't. Nobody pointed a gun at them. And I don't believe there was imminent danger from the pit bull either. If there had been, they wouldn't have waited a full 20 seconds after the first shot to fire the kill shots. And the yelping stopped before the kill shots too. I assume the yelping came from the corgi that was hit with the ricocheted bullet and it just stopped yelping on its own. The pit bull was then put down 20 seconds after the initial shot. Where was the charging? Apparently it was a dangerous enough situation to warrant firing once 4 seconds after bursting through the door, but safe enough to warrant NOT shooting again for another 20 seconds.

I think you need to come to realization that police make mistakes from time to time just like everybody else. The difference is that most people have to pay for their mistakes but it seems like police rarely have to pay for theirs. Face it. This was unreasonable, excessive and a definite mistake on the part of the police.
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Old 05-11-10, 09:36 PM   #148
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Then use the deaths to make a case for needing even more SWAT team members, with even more firearms and body armor, and even more armored personnel carriers for civilian LE, because they had to shoot people at the last major 'pot bust' and thus that violence surely justifies the advancement of the police state and more raids with more violence.
Thank god our gov't doesn't do that....imagine the ramifications?!
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Old 05-11-10, 10:15 PM   #149
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by whoopdido View Post
Oh please. That may be true if they truly did walk into a dangerous situation, but they didn't. Nobody pointed a gun at them. And I don't believe there was imminent danger from the pit bull either. If there had been, they wouldn't have waited a full 20 seconds after the first shot to fire the kill shots. And the yelping stopped before the kill shots too. I assume the yelping came from the corgi that was hit with the ricocheted bullet and it just stopped yelping on its own. The pit bull was then put down 20 seconds after the initial shot. Where was the charging? Apparently it was a dangerous enough situation to warrant firing once 4 seconds after bursting through the door, but safe enough to warrant NOT shooting again for another 20 seconds.

I think you need to come to realization that police make mistakes from time to time just like everybody else. The difference is that most people have to pay for their mistakes but it seems like police rarely have to pay for theirs. Face it. This was unreasonable, excessive and a definite mistake on the part of the police.
Your use of rampant speculation about what must have happened off camera has convinced me.

Or not. I'm starting to believe you've neither had an animal charge you nor seen the way wounded animals act when cornered. If the more plausible version of the story is that police shot the pit bull, then just callously came back for no reason 15 seconds later to finish it off for their own pleasure, while sparing the also wounded Corgi, then fine. Neither of us know what really happened, and I have no stake in convincing you that my speculation is better than yours.
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Old 05-11-10, 10:34 PM   #150
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Your use of rampant speculation about what must have happened off camera has convinced me.

Or not. I'm starting to believe you've neither had an animal charge you nor seen the way wounded animals act when cornered. If the more plausible version of the story is that police shot the pit bull, then just callously came back for no reason 15 seconds later to finish it off for their own pleasure, while sparing the also wounded Corgi, then fine. Neither of us know what really happened, and I have no stake in convincing you that my speculation is better than yours.
Well I'm glad you're admitting that you're speculating as well. I'm simply using my life experiences and what little I know about this specific situation to make, in my opinion, a very educated guess. And no I've never had an animal charge me but that in no way makes me ignorant on the subject.

I stand by my opinion that if it was a dangerous enough situation to warrant shooting immediately after entering then it should not have taken another 20 seconds to finish the job especially since by that time the suspect had already been safely apprehended.
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