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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 05-11-10, 11:49 AM   #101
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Originally Posted by CPA-ESQ. View Post


I would volunteer my time to go to animal shelters and kill every last pit bull that they have.

These are weapons - not pets
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Old 05-11-10, 11:51 AM   #102
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

the only places in NYC that I see pit bulls are the ones i don't want to live. Almost every good building has either a no pets policy, no dogs policy or no dogs over 4 pounds policy. no one wants pit bulls around. i have a neighbor that used to have a rotweiller. other people complained and the building management told them to get rid of it, and they did
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Old 05-11-10, 11:52 AM   #103
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Well, I for one am certainly glad we've figured out what steps the police did and didn't take in this case. I thought we were going off one video and a few articles pertaining to the video, but it seems like some people here were privy to information that I wasn't.

So they were playing Splinter Cell and working out instead of doing work. Can we also say they were drinking, or maybe even taking bribes? That makes the story even better.
So what's your take on the chain of events leading up to the invasion of someone's privacy, endangerment of their child, and the shooting of their dog? (all over a small amount of cannabis). Any cursory investigation of the household would have revealed the presence of the child. The lack of even that superficial level of investigation suggests there was total reliance on the informant's word. Very poor policing, not to mention a law which could do with a bit of "tightening up".
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Old 05-11-10, 11:55 AM   #104
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
i'm shocked

the OP said the guy was a model citizen
Yeah, I'm pretty glad they shot his dogs and terrorized that kid.
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Old 05-11-10, 11:59 AM   #105
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
The affidavit, for anybody who cares to read it:

http://www.gocolumbiamo.com/Police/D...rchwarrant.pdf

Having read the affidavit, the real problem I see is with the delay. They've been receiving information on him since 2003. They had two informants, one who gave information on 3/11 of 2009 that the homeowner was selling drugs. That can draw your attention to somebody, but it's year old info and too stale to get a warrant. Within 10 days prior of February 3, 2010 (and prior to 1/27, since the officer did a trash pull on the 27th in response to this information), another informant came forward with information that he had a large volume of drugs. They got the warrant on 2/3, then waited another 8 days to serve it. So that's a minimum of a 15 day lapse between information and the search. That's too long of a delay, in my opinion.

For interest, another story on the defendant:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...9/6-car-crash/
Because we know that when the police say there are informants, they're always telling the truth, right? At the same time, do I have to point out the multiple times informants gave bad information in order to get a good deal for themselves and, without bothering to corroborate the informants' information, police went in when there was zero to be found, and the person had done nothing wrong?

I don't care what he did in the past. So he had a DUI. What the hell is he going to do when they knock on the door, down a fifth of whiskey and run over the cops in his pickup truck?
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Last edited by wildcatlh; 05-11-10 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 05-11-10, 12:00 PM   #106
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Yeah, I'm pretty glad they shot his dogs and terrorized that kid.
Silly. To our betters, the ends justify the means. I mean, who cares what tactics they have to use! THEY GOT ONE OF THE MOST DANGEROUS DRUGS IN EXISTENCE OUT OF SOMEONE'S POCKET! Then they celebrated this accomplishment by going to the local pub and drinking nice, legal alcohol -- the safest drug in the world!
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Old 05-11-10, 12:08 PM   #107
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

There is no defense for this nonsense. NONE. he pled guilty for a misdemeanor possession of PARAPHERNALIA - not even a bit of pot itself. And they claimed they couldn't execute the warrant in the daytime - but the middle of the night while he was asleep with his wife and kids was okay?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-b..._b_567172.html


This is video game bullshit come to life. there are over a hundred of these "raids" every day in America - 90% of them are pointless exercises of machismo and adrenaline. The cops who shot the dogs are criminals, plain and simple. I don't know how many more of these stories we need to see before something changes...but there sure are a lot of them.
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Old 05-11-10, 01:15 PM   #108
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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I would volunteer my time to go to animal shelters and kill every last pit bull that they have.

These are weapons - not pets
I'd gladly volunteer to kill the corgis.

They are rodents - not pets.
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Old 05-11-10, 01:24 PM   #109
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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THIS IS MOST CERTAINLY NAZI BEHAVIOUR....
FURTHER DISCUSSION UNNECESSARY AND IRRELEVANT. These fucks are Nazi control freaks, plain and simple.
To make a claim like this is, well, sad, and an incredible insult to the 12 million people that died because of true Nazi behavior. The suspect lived and will be able to face charges in a court of law, the child was escorted, uncuffed, out of harm's way, and our society is one that allows open critique of our government. Any one of those would be impossible during Nazi rule - I can suggest some further reading if you'd like, so that future statements can perhaps be more accurate.
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Old 05-11-10, 01:26 PM   #110
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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To make a claim like this is, well, sad, and an incredible insult to the 12 million people that died because of true Nazi behavior. The suspect lived and will be able to face charges in a court of law, the child was escorted, uncuffed, out of harm's way, and our society is one that allows open critique of our government. Any one of those would be impossible during Nazi rule - I can suggest some further reading if you'd like, so that future statements can perhaps be more accurate.
So we're using the Nazis as our measuring stick now? Since this isn't quite as bad as what the Nazis did, it's ok?
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Old 05-11-10, 01:27 PM   #111
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Because we know that when the police say there are informants, they're always telling the truth, right? At the same time, do I have to point out the multiple times informants gave bad information in order to get a good deal for themselves and, without bothering to corroborate the informants' information, police went in when there was zero to be found, and the person had done nothing wrong?

I don't care what he did in the past. So he had a DUI. What the hell is he going to do when they knock on the door, down a fifth of whiskey and run over the cops in his pickup truck?
You're of course right. Informants are sometimes unreliable, so of course they must always be unreliable. Even if you repeatedly get different informants over the course of years that tell you a certain person is selling drugs. Luckily, once again, the court disagree with your assessment. Perhaps arguing matters based on existing law, and not law-as-you-wish-it-to-be-no-matter-how-detached-from-reality, might be more fruitful. In any case, I'm not going to engage you in the latter, any more than I'm going to engage people who blather about "it's just pot." Pot's illegal. Selling pot is even more illegal. Regardless of what you think of that as policy, until those laws change, police enforcement actions based on enforcing drug laws are completely legal and valid.

This is a person with a known history of drug use, for whom the police had longstanding tips for half a decade that he has been involved in selling drugs, for whom they received a recent tip that he was in possession of a large amount of marijuana, and for whom they did a trash pull and found evidence of drugs and paraphernalia. They had more than enough to get a search warrant.

I posted the DUI story because I thought his actions during the story might shed a little light on his character. The substance of the DUI arrest itself is less relevant to this story than his previous drug arrests, which were mentioned in the affidavit.

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Silly. To our betters, the ends justify the means.
That's funny. It seems to me that according to some of the posters here, the ends disqualify the means. About half the posts here are people screaming "they only found a small amount of pot" or "he only plead guilty to possession of paraphernalia!" By implication, they wouldn't have the same objection if the police had found a major growing operation, with hundreds of plants, weapons, and distribution paraphernalia? Both are irrelevant; what matters on the propriety of the search was what the police reasonably believed at the time they obtained and executed the warrant, not the end results.
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Old 05-11-10, 01:31 PM   #112
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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So we're using the Nazis as our measuring stick now? Since this isn't quite as bad as what the Nazis did, it's ok?
I didn't read a value statement in his post approving of police action here. I think maybe he was suggesting simply that people, such as you from the 2nd post when you initially Godwin'ed the thread, who would compare what the police did here to Nazi Germany or Communistic Russia are being a tad hyperbolic?
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Old 05-11-10, 01:49 PM   #113
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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So we're using the Nazis as our measuring stick now? Since this isn't quite as bad as what the Nazis did, it's ok?
That's not what I said. I was merely responding to the numerous statements that suggest that these officers were acting in ways similiar to Nazi Germany behavior.

I think a reasonable argument can be made on either side - that the officers acted legally and justly, and/or that the officers overreacted, especially when it comes to the shooting of the dog. Both sides hold reasonable merit - but to call the actions "Nazi Behavior", that is the point where the position becomes, well, silly and uneducated.
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Old 05-11-10, 01:54 PM   #114
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Yeah, I'm pretty glad they shot his dogs and terrorized that kid.

the police screwed up by waiting over a week since the warrant was granted. this guy has been investigated for drugs for years. not like this just happened.

if i was a cop and had a pit bull growling at me in that situation i'd shoot it too. safety first
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Old 05-11-10, 02:04 PM   #115
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Both are irrelevant; what matters on the propriety of the search was what the police reasonably believed at the time they obtained and executed the warrant, not the end results.
What matters is that the police carried out insufficient exploritory research to determine the situation they would be entering. That a judge issued a warrant is proof of nothing more than warrants can be obtained from certain judges with relative ease. What is now claimed to have been reasonable believed is irrelevant. It is the lack of simple shoe leather in this case which is so worrying. It can't help but lead to the impression that certain police are more interested in strapping on their vest and weapon than in doing a little basic research. Perhaps that speaks to the messed up priorities of a few cops, but the defense they've received since suggests the attitude is institutional. Gung ho is a phrase which springs to mind..
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Old 05-11-10, 02:05 PM   #116
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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To make a claim like this is, well, sad, and an incredible insult to the 12 million people that died because of true Nazi behavior.
"Nazi-like behavior" can only cover mass murder? Odd, the histories of the Third Reich I've read include many other forms of thuggery.
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Old 05-11-10, 02:18 PM   #117
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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what matters on the propriety of the search was what the police reasonably believed at the time they obtained and executed the warrant, not the end results.
What matters is what goes into "reasonable belief" from the perspective of a cop, the lengths they should go (beyond a minimum) to obtain a requisite factual knowledge of the potential lethal situation they are injecting themselves into, and the rubber-stamping of many of these warrants by individuals who enjoy immunity from any negligence on their part. Given the tactics and the danger to life (on all sides) that is created by these paramilitary raids, some of us believe that your "reasonable belief" and subsequent judicial rubber-stamping isn't a high enough standard. You would prefer the lowest standard possible since it makes your job 'easier.'

So sure, if your claim is that the cops here played it by the book, you get no disagreement from me. I say the book is wrong. Very wrong.

As for end results, if saying that all this resulted in busting someone for a tiny amount of pot helps show the lunacy of this War to the carbon blobs, then I'm all for it.
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Old 05-11-10, 02:25 PM   #118
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

What happens when they do this to the wrong house and instead of a cop shooting a dog someone with a legal weapon opens up and kills a few of these yahoos. I bet they are tried for murder regardless if they have any drugs or not.
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Old 05-11-10, 02:44 PM   #119
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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What matters is what goes into "reasonable belief" from the perspective of a cop, the lengths they should go (beyond a minimum) to obtain a requisite factual knowledge of the potential lethal situation they are injecting themselves into, and the rubber-stamping of many of these warrants by individuals who enjoy immunity from any negligence on their part. Given the tactics and the danger to life (on all sides) that is created by these paramilitary raids, some of us believe that your "reasonable belief" and subsequent judicial rubber-stamping isn't a high enough standard. You would prefer the lowest standard possible since it makes your job 'easier.'

So sure, if your claim is that the cops here played it by the book, you get no disagreement from me. I say the book is wrong. Very wrong.

As for end results, if saying that all this resulted in busting someone for a tiny amount of pot helps show the lunacy of this War to the carbon blobs, then I'm all for it.
it's a miracle that most of us haven't had our doors knocked down at 1am by a raid like this
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Old 05-11-10, 02:46 PM   #120
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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What happens when they do this to the wrong house and instead of a cop shooting a dog someone with a legal weapon opens up and kills a few of these yahoos. I bet they are tried for murder regardless if they have any drugs or not.
You would be correct.

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Old 05-11-10, 02:47 PM   #121
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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What happens when they do this to the wrong house and instead of a cop shooting a dog someone with a legal weapon opens up and kills a few of these yahoos. I bet they are tried for murder regardless if they have any drugs or not.
in the end the idea is that a judge allows you to go into someone's home without their permission to gather evidence of criminal activity. the law says you have to announce yourself as police officers and the people have to obey the commands given to them

this is the way search warrants have worked since the late 1700's
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Old 05-11-10, 03:09 PM   #122
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

People are also allowed to use reasonable force if they reasonably believe themselves to be under attack.
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Old 05-11-10, 03:16 PM   #123
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

in this case they clearly announced themselves as police before they entered
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Old 05-11-10, 03:30 PM   #124
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Sorry but yelling "this is the police" is not good enough. Anyone can do that. If cops are shot it should be just the part of doing business in this manner. The home owner should have no more liability than the cops breaking in. If they are shot while breaking into the wrong house there is no "I'm just an innocent bystander", "Tuff shit fella".
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Old 05-11-10, 03:43 PM   #125
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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in this case they clearly announced themselves as police before they entered
And you're just supposed to believe them?
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