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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 05-10-10, 07:14 PM   #76
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by BradJ View Post
This might be a weak argument, but it's one that came to mind. Having worked (civilian) law enforcement before, for 11 years, I've seen numerous raids first hand, and more often than not, the suspects are in custody before they even have a minute of conscious thought to consider whether the intruders are police or home invaders and consider a response. That's why police use the tactics they do - diversions, non lethal explosive devices, cover/concealment, night, etc. They want the suspect in cuffs before they have a chance to reach for any potential firearm, regardless of who the suspect believes is entering the house. That is the ideal situation, and that is why police use force - to overpower the subject.

I believe anyone that is comparing this type of raid to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia is either being intentionally inflammatory or historically ignorant. In Nazi Germany, the subjects of similiar raids did not have the opportunity to raise concerns about their dead dog after the fact, nor were their children escorted out of harm's way by officers serving the warrant. They were exterminated, plain and simple.

To say that today's police force is similiar to that of Nazi Germany is similiar to suggesting pot smokers are all heavily armed drug dealers bent on world domination and a complete revolution of any governmental standard. They are both ridiculous conclusions. Anyone making either claim should be ashamed of themselves.
Good post.

I think these SWAT-style raids on drug dealers are utter bullshit. But these folks aren't getting "the knock" and dragged off to the gulag. Seriously.
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Old 05-10-10, 07:38 PM   #77
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Realistically, what kind of danger does a pit bull pose to law enforcement officials wearing the sort of gear that the officers in the video were wearing?
Agreed, shooting the dog was rediculous and I cant see any justification for that. All they found was a small amount of pot. How the hell do you screw up that bad.

I am sorry there is no excuse for this type of sloppy detective work.
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Old 05-10-10, 09:11 PM   #78
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

If they are that concerned with the safety of the officers that they need a full SWAT deployment, why can't they just keep an eye on the place and detain the suspect when he/she leaves and then search the house? Why the need for violent confrontation that seems to have a reasonable chance of escalating?
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Old 05-11-10, 12:59 AM   #79
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

I'd love to see video of what the dog was doing immediately after the police broke down the door. It sure looked like the the police shot 4 seconds after they entered which wouldn't even have given the dog enough time to attack. I'm all for police officers protecting themselves and a pit bull definitely has the potential to be very dangerous to a police officer, but it sure looked like the dude shot first and asked questions later.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with the police breaking down your door and immediately shooting your dogs, one of which being a frickin corgi just because they THINK they MIGHT be dangerous. Hell, even if the dog did attack, I'm pretty sure the riot gear not to mention the other officers would have been able to neutralize the dog very quickly.

I'm with the police 99.9% of the time, but this is complete bush league. Can the people sue for destruction of property aka the dogs?

What if both dogs were champion show dogs worth thousands and thousands of dollars? I'm sorry but4 seconds definitely isn't enough time to distinguish between a $5000 champion corgi and a dangerous fighting dog ready to rip your throat out.

Not to mention the fact that there was already one child in the house and it only took 4 seconds for the police to start shooting. How did they know there weren't more children in the house? The officers were not in any danger...how irresponsible can you be to walk into a house and within 4 seconds fire your gun?

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Old 05-11-10, 02:09 AM   #80
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Uhm, the guy was a drug dealer. They had enough evidence for a warrant. Additionally, they did find drugs in his house. A dog that's gnawing away at one of your teammates while the suspect is not yet in custody is a risk to everyone's life. Not worth it. Especially for a piece of shit pit bull. The corgi survived.

You can argue with their tactics all you want, but the guy had the opportunity to come to the door, too, and didn't. You criticize the officers for their actions with a *gasp* child in the house, but don't criticize the guy for having drugs in the same house as a child?
Armed Swat guys swinging loaded guns around seems a little more dangerous than a guy with a little pot.

And I'm betting the guy wasn't a drug dealer. I'm betting that a piece of shit informant gave this guy up instead of a real criminal. And judging by the way the guy reacted to his dog being killed, I bet he wasn't too much of a threat to society.
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Old 05-11-10, 02:23 AM   #81
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

I don't think people were literally comparing Nazi Germany and Russia to what was going on in this video. I think people are over-analyzing what was said. The post was just about how excessive the measures taken in this video are. That's it. We all know how terrible the Nazis were, we don't need a refresher.
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Old 05-11-10, 02:39 AM   #82
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix View Post
Uhm, the guy was a drug dealer.
Umm, the guy had a "small amount" of pot, only enough for a misdemeanor. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was a "drug dealer."

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They had enough evidence for a warrant.
A cop testifying to a judge that an informant told him there were drugs in the house is about all it takes to get a warrant in Missouri. Doesn't make it true, and in this case it wasn't.

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You can argue with their tactics all you want, but the guy had the opportunity to come to the door, too, and didn't.
The time that elapses between when the cop first knocks on the door and then kicks it in is 10 seconds. Do you always get to the door in 10 seconds when someone knocks?
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Old 05-11-10, 02:54 AM   #83
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by Duran View Post
If they are that concerned with the safety of the officers that they need a full SWAT deployment, why can't they just keep an eye on the place and detain the suspect when he/she leaves and then search the house? Why the need for violent confrontation that seems to have a reasonable chance of escalating?
Because what you stated would require work. And it's not glamorous..nor does it increase your testicle juices.

Intelligent agents would have investigated this enough to determine it was not a threat at all, and would have simply moved on. And if there was a dangerous drug dealer in the house... y'all normally pick the guy up when he's not in his own goddamn house. Like when he goes to the local convenient store or whatever (geographic pickup determined by a little bit of investigation versus playing Splinter Cell and texting your buddies how much you bench pressed this evening).
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Old 05-11-10, 07:55 AM   #84
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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At least it was a pit bull.
pits are great dogs.
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Old 05-11-10, 08:27 AM   #85
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Because what you stated would require work. And it's not glamorous..nor does it increase your testicle juices.

Intelligent agents would have investigated this enough to determine it was not a threat at all, and would have simply moved on. And if there was a dangerous drug dealer in the house... y'all normally pick the guy up when he's not in his own goddamn house. Like when he goes to the local convenient store or whatever (geographic pickup determined by a little bit of investigation versus playing Splinter Cell and texting your buddies how much you bench pressed this evening).
So many things seem really easy from behind a computer screen to me too!
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Old 05-11-10, 08:49 AM   #86
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Like sitting in a car and watching a house to see who goes in and out. Think the cops used to have a word for that sort of thing..
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Old 05-11-10, 09:24 AM   #87
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

I'm sorry, but we live in a country of laws, and just because so many people in our country are too lazy to get a real job that they decide to sell drugs to hapless individuals who can't help but get addicted, we can't just let it slide. I'd have them build a huge prison out of hemp and then throw all the idiots in there. It would probably create a ton of jobs too. Of course the police have to get rough with them now, because they're arming themselves to the teeth. They create huge, camouflaged fields of drugs that are riddled with tons of booby traps. In Riverside County in California, there's been tons of drug activity, and just because the police are getting killed doesn't mean that they should just back down and let the law slide. Because rule of law, after all, is this country's most important tenet.
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Old 05-11-10, 09:26 AM   #88
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix View Post
A dog that's gnawing away at one of your teammates while the suspect is not yet in custody is a risk to everyone's life. Not worth it. Especially for a piece of shit pit bull. The corgi survived.
How do you know the dog was gnawing away on one of his teammates? That's why I'd love to see what was going on in the house during the first 10 seconds or so. I don't necessarily have a problem with the officers shooting the second dog, which from what I understand was the pit bull. It took more like 30 seconds until the second dog (pit bull) was shot dead and that's more than enough time for a pit bull to turn violent and become dangerous. I'm talking about the corgi that was shot and survived. And I'm not necessarily going nuts over the fact that a couple dogs got shot. I'm upset at the show of force and seemingly utter lack of discipline, training and irresponsible behavior of the officers that entered a house and within 4 seconds fired their gun. 4 seconds isn't enough time for anybody to do anything let alone a frickin corgi to start gnawing on somebody.

Hell, Jack Bauer can't even assess a potentially hostile situation in 4 seconds. I thought police are trained to shoot at an absolute last resort. I truly think this guy went into the situation thinking that if he saw a dog...any dog...no matter the situation he's gonna shoot. Just terrible police work in my opinion and not how I like to think our police officers handle situations.

Oh and by the way, if you watch the video the suspect was on the ground and contained BEFORE the second dog was shot dead.
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Old 05-11-10, 10:18 AM   #89
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Agreed on the first point. Maybe he wasn't a drug dealer, but at the very least he's a drug user with a kid in the house. Sympathy dropping...
Most American men use drugs in front of their kids. It's called alcohol.

Do you seriously think the guy keeping a little pot in his house is worse than a case of Bud?
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Old 05-11-10, 10:24 AM   #90
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Originally Posted by DarkestPhoenix View Post
Agreed on the first point. Maybe he wasn't a drug dealer, but at the very least he's a drug user with a kid in the house. Sympathy dropping...

Yeah, when someone yells police, I'm going to yell "Coming Officer!" at the very least, within ten seconds.
It'd be much better if he were just an alcohol user like a proper American.
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Old 05-11-10, 10:25 AM   #91
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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I'm sorry, but we live in a country of laws, and just because so many people in our country are too lazy to get a real job that they decide to sell drugs to hapless individuals who can't help but get addicted, we can't just let it slide. I'd have them build a huge prison out of hemp and then throw all the idiots in there. It would probably create a ton of jobs too. Of course the police have to get rough with them now, because they're arming themselves to the teeth. They create huge, camouflaged fields of drugs that are riddled with tons of booby traps. In Riverside County in California, there's been tons of drug activity, and just because the police are getting killed doesn't mean that they should just back down and let the law slide. Because rule of law, after all, is this country's most important tenet.
Given your signature, I'm going to assume you're either trolling or being sarcastic.
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Old 05-11-10, 10:41 AM   #92
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

Is this on the road to a police state? Maybe not. But I doubt the SWAT team in Columbia, Missouri has little else to do but bust pot or meth dealers. Looks like a bunch of walking hardons that just got done playing call of duty and needed an excuse to use those MP5's. Great use of tax payers money by the way. I"m sure they need those to break up keggers at Mizzu.
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Old 05-11-10, 10:57 AM   #93
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

Well, I for one am certainly glad we've figured out what steps the police did and didn't take in this case. I thought we were going off one video and a few articles pertaining to the video, but it seems like some people here were privy to information that I wasn't.

So they were playing Splinter Cell and working out instead of doing work. Can we also say they were drinking, or maybe even taking bribes? That makes the story even better.

I didn't realize until Superboy's post that the rule of law wasn't that important. I'd always been under the misconception that the rule of law was one of the fundamental components of our society, so it shocked me to learn it's just trivial. I did some digging, and it turns out the quote is actually that we should be a "government of men and not of laws," and that it's just been widely misquoted.

Last edited by CaptainMarvel; 05-11-10 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 05-11-10, 11:28 AM   #94
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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I did some digging, and it turns out the quote is actually that we should be a "government of men and not of laws," and that it's just been widely misquoted.
"Many quotes found on the internet turn out to be wrong." - Jane Austen

(But I may be paraphrasing a bit.)
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Old 05-11-10, 11:29 AM   #95
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

The affidavit, for anybody who cares to read it:

http://www.gocolumbiamo.com/Police/D...rchwarrant.pdf

Having read the affidavit, the real problem I see is with the delay. They've been receiving information on him since 2003. They had two informants, one who gave information on 3/11 of 2009 that the homeowner was selling drugs. That can draw your attention to somebody, but it's year old info and too stale to get a warrant. Within 10 days prior of February 3, 2010 (and prior to 1/27, since the officer did a trash pull on the 27th in response to this information), another informant came forward with information that he had a large volume of drugs. They got the warrant on 2/3, then waited another 8 days to serve it. So that's a minimum of a 15 day lapse between information and the search. That's too long of a delay, in my opinion.

For interest, another story on the defendant:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...9/6-car-crash/
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Old 05-11-10, 11:30 AM   #96
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Well said, BradJ. This thread has the worst hyperbole I've ever seen on the internet.
And your use of hyperbole is giving me cancer!
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Old 05-11-10, 11:33 AM   #97
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
"Many quotes found on the internet turn out to be wrong." - Jane Austen

(But I may be paraphrasing a bit.)
The quote I've always heard is "A government of laws, and not of men." It's attributed to John Adams. I'd be curious to know if you're claiming that quote is incorrect.
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Old 05-11-10, 11:38 AM   #98
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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At least it was a pit bull.



I would volunteer my time to go to animal shelters and kill every last pit bull that they have.

These are weapons - not pets
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Old 05-11-10, 11:42 AM   #99
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Re: This is what the "War on Drugs" looks like

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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
The affidavit, for anybody who cares to read it:

http://www.gocolumbiamo.com/Police/D...rchwarrant.pdf

Having read the affidavit, the real problem I see is with the delay. They've been receiving information on him since 2003. They had two informants, one who gave information on 3/11 of 2009 that the homeowner was selling drugs. That can draw your attention to somebody, but it's year old info and too stale to get a warrant. Within 10 days prior of February 3, 2010 (and prior to 1/27, since the officer did a trash pull on the 27th in response to this information), another informant came forward with information that he had a large volume of drugs. They got the warrant on 2/3, then waited another 8 days to serve it. So that's a minimum of a 15 day lapse between information and the search. That's too long of a delay, in my opinion.

For interest, another story on the defendant:
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...9/6-car-crash/
i'm shocked

the OP said the guy was a model citizen
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Old 05-11-10, 11:46 AM   #100
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Re: Video of Columbia, Missouri SWAT team conducting a search, shooting dogs

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Originally Posted by Mopower View Post
Is this on the road to a police state? Maybe not. But I doubt the SWAT team in Columbia, Missouri has little else to do but bust pot or meth dealers. Looks like a bunch of walking hardons that just got done playing call of duty and needed an excuse to use those MP5's. Great use of tax payers money by the way. I"m sure they need those to break up keggers at Mizzu.
the reason everyone has SWAT teams is that a few cops were killed serving warrants. the public/media was shocked and said it was unacceptable. so the local government creates a swat team. after they spend all this money they need to use them so it doesn't look like the money is wasted so they use them to execute some search warrants
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