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is this a hate crime?

Old 04-28-10, 06:59 AM
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is this a hate crime?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...ippi-town.html

<p>A white supremacist lawyer was stabbed and beaten to death by a black neighbour who had done yard work for him at his home in Pearl, Mississippi.</p><p>A preliminary post mortem showed Richard Barrett, 67, was stabbed multiple times in the neck and bashed in the head, Sheriff Ronnie Pennington said. <br></p><p>He had burns over 35 per cent of his body, though investigators believe he was killed on Wednesday night and his house set on fire Thursday to cover up his death.</p><p>Pennington did not disclose a motive but said neighbour Vincent McGee, 22, was charged with murder on Thursday and deputies charged three other people in the case on Friday. <br></p><div class="clear"> </div><div class="thinCenter"><div class="thinArtSplitter">
<div class="splitLeft">
<img src="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/24/article-0-09423E58000005DC-309_224x423.jpg" alt="Richard Barrett" class="blkBorder" height="423" width="224">
</div>
<div class="splitRight">
<img src="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/24/article-0-0942CCAB000005DC-561_224x423.jpg" alt="Richard Barrett" class="blkBorder" height="423" width="224">
</div>
<div class="clear"> </div>
</div><p style="text-align: left;" class="imageCaption">White supremacist Richard Barrett was found stabbed and beaten to death in his burning house in the town of Pearl, Mississippi. Right, Vincent McGee, 22, has been charged with the lawyer's murder
sounds like Barrett's whiteness played a major role in McGee deciding to murder the man. Is that a hate crime?
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Old 04-28-10, 08:24 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

What is the deal with those face tattoos? Looks like the playboy bunny on the right cheek and maybe the Tivo guy on the left?
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Old 04-28-10, 08:41 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Aside from the fact that the very concept of "hate crimes" is ridiculous, they will certainly never be applied equally to all races, nor were they ever intended to be.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:12 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

I'm in agreement with posts 3 & 4.

Exception: I don't agree with the comment (2nd paragraph) of post #4.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:14 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

I don't think it would technically qualify as a hate crime. The black guy didn't kill the white guy because of his race, but because of his belief that whites were superior. (and we dont really even know that.) He didnt kill just anybody because they were white he chose that specific guy. And the article doesnt really have many details for us to judge. Maybe it wasnt even racial. Maybe the white guy's dog shit on the black guy's lawn.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:15 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by chrisih8u View Post
I don't think it would technically qualify as a hate crime. The black guy didn't kill the white guy because of his race, but because of his belief that whites were superior. He didnt kill just anybody because they were white he chose that specific guy. And the article doesnt really have many details for us to judge. Maybe it wasnt even racial. Maybe the white guy's dog shit on the black guy's lawn.
If a black guy spouted off how blacks were superior to whites and a white guy with facial tattoos stabbed him and set him on fire, would the white guy not get charged with a hate crime?
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Old 04-28-10, 09:30 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Pennington did not disclose a motive
If the prosecutors think the victim was selected because he was white, they can charge him with a hate crime. If they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they can convict him.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:30 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

In Mississippi, it's only a hate crime if based on "actual or perceived race, color, ancestry, ethnicity, religion, national origin or gender of the victim". I don't see how white supremacists fall into any of those. In areas that add 'beliefs' to things it's extra bad to kill people for, I think it would be.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:36 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

From the article I read, race didn't have to do with it. The guy killed him because he stiffed him on pay for work he did.
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Old 04-28-10, 09:46 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

I don't see anything in the article to suggest that the crime was racially motivated.
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Old 04-28-10, 10:48 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

I'm just surprised to learn in this thread that Lemmy is a white supremacist. Why else would he be against hate crime legislation?
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Old 04-28-10, 04:02 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
If the prosecutors think the victim was selected because he was white, they can charge him with a hate crime. If they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, they can convict him.
Key word: 'can.'

It would never happen though.
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Old 04-28-10, 04:04 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

I think there are pretty good odds that the victim was an asshole, and might have done some things (that aren't necessarily racially based) to set the alleged murderer off.
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Old 04-28-10, 04:16 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
I think there are pretty good odds that the victim was an asshole
Why, because he was a white supremacist? Isn't stereotyping white supremacists THE WORST KIND OF RACISM POSSIBLE? What if a white Christian on Fox News said something like that about Obama and the Tea Party and wind farms? He would literally be murdered on the air by an illegal Mexican AND YOU KNOW IT.
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Old 04-28-10, 04:17 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
Key word: 'can.'

It would never happen though.
These FBI statistics:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/data/table_01.html

indicate that in 2008 alone, 811 people were charged with committing hate crimes on the basis of anti-white bias.
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Old 04-28-10, 04:21 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

What's the number for white on black?
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Old 04-28-10, 04:25 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
What's the number for white on black?
This isn't one of your chat lines, buddy. Hang up and try again.
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Old 04-29-10, 01:08 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Sounds like a crime of passion to me.
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Old 04-29-10, 01:14 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Maybe Nazi Pinky to Starface Leaky to shine his shoes.
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Old 05-01-10, 08:39 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Another example of how hate crime legislation is used for political and ideological ends, not for impartial justice:

Muslim daubs war memorial with 'Islam will dominate the world' - but walks free after CPS says he was NOT racially motivated

By James Tozer
Last updated at 11:30 PM on 30th April 2010
Comments (405) Add to My Stories Return to

A Muslim protester who daubed a war memorial with graffiti glorifying Osama Bin Laden and proclaiming 'Islam will dominate the world' walked free from court after prosecutors ruled his actions were not motivated by religion.
Tohseef Shah, 21, could have faced a tougher sentence if the court had accepted that the insults - which included a threat to kill the Prime Minister - were inspired by religious hatred.

But - citing a loophole in the law - the Crown Prosecution Service chose not to charge him with that offence and he escaped with only a two-year conditional discharge and an order to pay the council 500 compensation after admitting causing criminal damage.

Yesterday the decision was attacked by politicians and veterans who were shocked by the desecration of the memorial in Burton-upon-Trent, Staffordshire.


Islamic message: Tohseef Shah's graffiti 'Islam will dominate the world' was not religiously motivated, according to the Crown Prosecution Service
Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, chairman of the Parliamentary Counter Terrorism sub-committee, said: 'This is an outrage against our war dead.'

Shah sprayed the words 'Islam will dominate the world - Osama
is on his way' and 'Kill Gordon Brown' on the plinth of the memorial in December.

He was arrested after his DNA was found on the discarded spray-can but refused to give an explanation for his actions or show any remorse, a court heard.

A file was sent to lawyers at the Counter Terrorism Division of the CPS in London to see if there was a racially or religiously motivated connotation.

However when Shah appeared before magistrates this week, prosecutor Andrew Bodger said: 'It was decided there was not enough evidence to prove this, and they decided it was politically motivated.'

Unrepentant: the court heard that Mr Shah had shown 'no remorse'
Defending, Mumtaz Chaudry said Shah did not hold extremist views. 'This is nothing to do with his religious beliefs, his family's beliefs or his cultural beliefs,' he said. 'He is just an ordinary guy.

'He is remorseful, but at the time of his interview he was simply answering questions and didn't realise that was the right time to show remorse.'

Local veterans reacted with horror last night. Roy Whenman, 78, who fought in the Korean War, said: 'If what he wrote on the memorial wasn't evidence of racial or religious hatred then what is?

'The memorial commemorates people of my generation who died for our freedom as well as those fighting in wars today.

'It's diabolical that someone could deface it in this way.'


Community leaders among Burton- upon-Trent's 4,000-strong Muslim population also slammed Shah's actions.

Khadim Thathall, a former president of a mosque in the town, said: 'This young man has clearly been radicalised by groups which are looking to cause trouble and it's a pity that the court hasn't been able to deal with him more strictly.'

Shah - believed to be a former student of De Montfort University in Leicester - uses as his Facebook profile photograph a flaming lion's head superimposed on crossed Kalashnikov rifles.

He lives with his parents in a 200,000 detached house and works at his father's car spares shop. Last night, he refused to discuss the case.

Instead he appointed Abdullah Ibn Abbas, who described himself as spiritual leader of a group called Road to Jannah, to speak on his behalf.

He said: 'It really doesn't concern us how the British people feel about the graffiti he wrote - the real outrage should be about the thousands of Muslims who are being killed and butchered as a result of British foreign policy.'


The CPS said Shah's offence could not be charged as a hate crime because the law requires that damage must target a particular religious or racial group.

It said: 'While it was appreciated that what was sprayed on the memorial may have been perceived by some to be part of a racial or religious incident, no racial or religious group can be shown to have been targeted.'

The case comes after a senior judge ruled on Thursday that Christian beliefs had no right to protection by the courts.

Lord Justice Laws told Christian counsellor Gary McFarlane he had no right to appeal after he was sacked for refusing to give sex therapy to a gay couple.

The judge said legal protection for views held purely on religious grounds would be 'irrational'.
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Old 05-01-10, 10:02 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

The biggest surprise in that article is that the UK uses DNA testing in graffiti cases.
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Old 05-02-10, 01:28 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
Yes, it's a "hate crime", according to the definition in most legal circles....but I doubt that white supremacists would get the same protection under the law as, say, people of other ethnicities or religions. Which is why I think "hate crime" legislation is utter bullshit, really. If it's a crime, set the sentencing guidelines so that "less heinous" murderers can be given lighter sentences, and killers who commit more severe versions of the same atrocity can be sent up for much longer times (or executed...I'm all for the death penalty, but that's another thread, I think). Hate Crime legislation would be a collection of unnecessary laws, really, if the original laws had been written properly. Why not do away with hate crime laws, and expand the power of the original laws? We'd have fewer laws on the books (don't get me started on how many irrelevant/ignorant laws we don't need "active", and yet, there they are), and the law would allow for judges...to judge!

But, just because I think that hate crimes are the bunk doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the white supremacist. Please don't misconstrue my comments to mean that.

Holy Cow I agree with Lemmy
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Old 05-02-10, 01:54 PM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Instead he appointed Abdullah Ibn Abbas, who described himself as spiritual leader of a group called Road to Jannah, to speak on his behalf.

He said: 'It really doesn't concern us how the British people feel about the graffiti he wrote - the real outrage should be about the thousands of Muslims who are being killed and butchered as a result of British foreign policy.'
Let me translate, as I speak hypocrite: "Our crimes are less than your crimes, therefore they do not count."
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Old 05-03-10, 12:13 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by maxfisher View Post
The biggest surprise in that article is that the UK uses DNA testing in graffiti cases.
People talk about America losing it's civil liberties (OMG they want to ask for ID to vote? That's a violation of my rights!!!), but we have absolutely nothing on the UK.
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Old 05-03-10, 08:36 AM
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Re: is this a hate crime?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
And yet, I'm amused at how much lower their homicide rates are than in the USA. And how many fewer gun crimes in general. And fewer rapes per capita. Hmmmm....

I think the statistics have been trending very differently for quite a while----this piece is from 2003, and I believe these trends have only continued in this direction since then:


Why Britain needs more guns

Would break-ins fall for fear of armed resistance?



By Joyce L Malcolm
Author and academic


As gun crime leaps by 35% in a year[in the UK], plans are afoot for a further crack down on firearms. Yet what we need is more guns, not fewer, says a US academic.

"If guns are outlawed," an American bumper sticker warns, "only outlaws will have guns." With gun crime in Britain soaring in the face of the strictest gun control laws of any democracy, the UK seems about to prove that warning prophetic.
For 80 years the safety of the British people has been staked on the premise that fewer private guns means less crime, indeed that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger.

Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.

The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.

But would allowing law-abiding people to "have arms for their defence", as the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised, increase violence? Would Britain be following America's bad example?


The 'wild west' image is out of date

Old stereotypes die hard and the vision of Britain as a peaceable kingdom, America as "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic" is out of date. It is true that in contrast to Britain's tight gun restrictions, half of American households have firearms, and 33 states now permit law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons.

But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.

You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.



Concealed weapon can be carried in 33 states
Much is made of the higher American rate for murder. That is true and has been for some time. But as the Office of Health Economics in London found, not weapons availability, but "particular cultural factors" are to blame.

A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.

When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.


Gun crime rates between UK and US are narrowing
The price of British government insistence upon a monopoly of force comes at a high social cost.

First, it is unrealistic. No police force, however large, can protect everyone. Further, hundreds of thousands of police hours are spent monitoring firearms restrictions, rather than patrolling the streets. And changes in the law of self-defence have left ordinary people at the mercy of thugs.

According to Glanville Williams in his Textbook of Criminal Law, self-defence is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law".

Nearly a century before that American bumper sticker was slapped on the first bumper, the great English jurist, AV Dicey cautioned: "Discourage self-help, and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians." He knew public safety is not enhanced by depriving people of their right to personal safety.

Joyce Lee Malcolm, professor of history, is author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience, published in June 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 05-03-10 at 08:42 AM.
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