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Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Old 04-19-10, 01:57 PM
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Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

I think it's a good idea for doctors to wash their hands.

What do you think?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/7576...iene-rule.html

Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Muslim doctors and nurses are to be allowed to opt out of strict hygiene rules introduced by the NHS to restrict the spread of hospital superbugs.

11 Apr 2010

Female staff who follow the Islamic faith will be allowed to cover their arms to preserve their modesty despite earlier guidance that all staff should be "bare below the elbow".

The Department of Health has also relaxed rules prohibiting jewellery so that Sikh members of staff can wear bangles linked with their faith, providing they are pushed up the arm while the medic treats a patient.

The Mail on Sunday reported the change had been made after female Muslims objected to being required to expose their arm below the elbow under guidance introduced by Alan Johnson when he was health secretary in 2007.

The rules were drawn up to reduce the number of patients who were falling ill, and even dying, from superbugs such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile.

Revised guidance which relaxed the requirements for some religions was published last month.

Some Muslim staff and those from other groups may be allowed to use disposable plastic over-sleeves which cover their clothes below the elbow and allow the skin to remain covered up.

Derek Butler, chairman of MRSA Action UK, said: "My worry is that allowing some medics to use disposable sleeves you compromise patient safety because unless you change the sleeves between each patient, you spread bacteria.

"Scrubbing bare arms is far more effective."

A Department of Health spokesman said: "The guidance is intended to provide direction to services in how they can balance infection control measures with cultural beliefs without compromising patient safety."
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Old 04-19-10, 02:03 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Disposable sleeves seem like a reasonable alternative, as long as they are changed appropriately. Much like gloves.

But I'd have to see the data on the spread of things before I make a call on whether that's a reasonable expectation to begin with.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:08 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

And so it goes with religion.

I know our school district has "religious exemptions" on immunizations and examinations and the exemptions are not for the Muslim faith.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:12 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I think it's a good idea for doctors to wash their hands.

What do you think?
Me too. Sounds like the NHS agrees with both of us!
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Old 04-19-10, 02:12 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I know our school district has "religious exemptions" on immunizations and examinations and the exemptions are not for the Muslim faith.
Oh which faith is it? Please tell us, we're all dying to know!
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Old 04-19-10, 02:17 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
Oh which faith is it? Please tell us, we're all dying to know!
I have no idea. My sentence would be better with "exclusively" at the end.

But all religions, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, Mormonism are equally absurd so does it really matter? Let's just not single out one of many absurdities and point fingers.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:28 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I have no idea. My sentence would be better with "exclusively" at the end.

But all religions, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, Mormonism are equally absurd so does it really matter? Let's just not single out one of many absurdities and point fingers.
Well, that is logical. If one truly believes that, empirically, all religions are equally absurd and equally prone to having a negative effect on society, then it would follow that criticizing one more than another would be irrational, and could only stem from ignorance, bigotry and hatred. And that, of course, is the logic of many on the left. I would argue that this worldview of cultural relativism is very similar to a religion itself---and it's not the least absurd one.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:30 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

How is it not logical? Religion by definition is illogical.

I never said anything about negative effects (although we've certainly had threads on the topic) but only spoke of the absurdities of their customs and traditions. All of them.

Last edited by CRM114; 04-19-10 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:35 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
How is it not logical? Religion by definition is illogical.

I never said anything about negative effects (although we've certainly had threads on the topic) but only spoke of the absurdities of their customs and traditions. All of them. I find Scientology no sillier than Mormonism which is no sillier than Christianity.
If all the practices, beliefs and texts of the different religions are all equally absurd, how could they have unequal impacts on society?
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Old 04-19-10, 02:39 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

This argument is growing silly fast. Obviously any two equally absurd things do not necessarily impact society in equal amounts, because absurdity is not measured merely by societal impact.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:41 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
This argument is growing silly fast. Obviously any two equally absurd things do not necessarily impact society in equal amounts, because absurdity is not measured merely by societal impact.

I assume the "absurdity" of something is measured by it's distance from truth and reality, and I would tend to think that beliefs and practices that correspond more closely to truth and reality would, on the whole, impact society positively.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:47 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Yeah, I don't entirely disagree, but it's not really worth arguing I'm afraid... at least not in the context of this thread. I can think of all sort of things to counter that but they would all lead off track. I think we can all understand CRM's take on it without debating an individual statement.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:52 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

This thread sucks. I had a "72 virgins" joke all queued up, but we aren't bashing Muslims at all! The fun truly has left the forum.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:53 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
And so it goes with religion.

I know our school district has "religious exemptions" on immunizations and examinations and the exemptions are not for the Muslim faith.
Followers of the Christian Science religion generally avoid any sort of medical treatment and use faith healing instead, so there's that one.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:55 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I think we can all understand CRM's take on it without debating an individual statement.
So as long as we understand each other's position on this forum, there's no need to debate individual statements? I think I missed that one in the forum rules.
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Old 04-19-10, 02:56 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
If all the practices, beliefs and texts of the different religions are all equally absurd, how could they have unequal impacts on society?
Because they are equally fiction.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:06 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Man, the NHS is really getting worse by the day. I think there really needs to be a clause in some governing document somewhere that says that human health trumps religious concerns.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:13 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
So as long as we understand each other's position on this forum, there's no need to debate individual statements? I think I missed that one in the forum rules.
I'm sorry you didn't understand what CRM was saying. But "there isn't a rule about it" shouldn't be your only guide to meaningful discussion. You seem to be trying to trap CRM in his own words, and you're failing at it by making invalid assumptions.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:14 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Because they are equally fiction.

Ok, then . I'll just leave it at this---the mass acceptance of the idea that all religions are equal (or equally silly)---and that none should be singled out, is exactly why stories like this are now in the paper daily in Europe, and why the authorities are dumbfounded as to why these conflicts are arising now when they weren't there before.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:16 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Man, the NHS is really getting worse by the day. I think there really needs to be a clause in some governing document somewhere that says that human health trumps religious concerns.
Then we should vaccinate all children regardless of their religious concerns, correct? I agree.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:20 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I'm sorry you didn't understand what CRM was saying. But "there isn't a rule about it" shouldn't be your only guide to meaningful discussion. You seem to be trying to trap CRM in his own words, and you're failing at it by making invalid assumptions.

I understand perfectly what he's saying, and I disagree with that--I think it's an important point, and a civil debate can take place. I don't feel that my assumptions have been shown to be invalid, unless I were to acknowledge your claim that "I can think of all sort of things to counter that but they would all lead off track". If you feel that all religions are equally absurd, as he does, then you're free to support that position.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:21 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Ok, then . I'll just leave it at this---the mass acceptance of the idea that all religions are equal (or equally silly)---and that none should be singled out, is exactly why stories like this are now in the paper daily in Europe, and why the authorities are dumbfounded as to why these conflicts are arising now when they weren't there before.
The "mass acceptance" that all religions are equal only exists because people "accept" religion in general as truth. The problem is not individual religions but allowing religion to enter the workplace or government where it imposes on other people. It's why I wrote "And so it goes with religion." Various religions impose their ridiculous assertions on people and hide behind their fiction for justification. I see little distinction between a parent refusing medical treatment or refusing vaccination for their child on religious grounds as these eMuslim people and their ludicrous sleeves.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:22 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Then we should vaccinate all children regardless of their religious concerns, correct? I agree.
If vaccinations are required for all children by law, then yes.

This is also tied in to the fact that there is a huge Muslim population in England. This isn't just four or five Muslims spread across the entire NHS.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:23 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

I don't think kids should be forced to be vaccinated. There are lots of people who have fears of vaccinations (for what i think are ridiculous reasons). I think they have the right to not be forced to get vaccinations against their will.
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Old 04-19-10, 03:23 PM
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Re: Muslim staff escape NHS hygiene rule

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I understand perfectly what he's saying, and I disagree with that--I think it's an important point, and a civil debate can take place. I don't feel that my assumptions have been shown to be invalid, unless I were to acknowledge your claim that "I can think of all sort of things to counter that but they would all lead off track". If you feel that all religions are equally absurd, as he does, then you're free to support that position.
If someone thinks soda is foul, why would you bother debating which is better, Coke or Pepsi?
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