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Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Old 03-29-10, 02:15 PM
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Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

With all of this talk of harming members of Congress and Congress members themselves hanging "Don't Tread On Me" banners over the Capitol railing to incite a crowd of tea partiers, it seems some are treading into seditious acts.

Rep. Michele Bachmann: "I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous….having a revolution every now and then is a good thing.”

Rep. John Boehner: "Take [Democratic Congressman] Steve Driehaus, for example. He may be a dead man. He can't go home to the west side of Cincinnati.”

Rep. Steve King: "Let's beat that other side to a pulp! Let's take them out. Let's chase them down."

Now, today, a "Christian militia" group was busted attempting to start some sort of anti-government armed revolt.

Is all of this the left playing politics or is this real?

Sedition is a term of law which refers to overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority as tending toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.
'Christian warrior' militia accused in plot to kill police
By the CNN Wire Staff

(CNN) -- Nine people federal prosecutors say belong to a "Christian warrior" militia were accused Monday of plotting to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then attack other police at the funeral.
A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, indicted six Michigan residents, two Ohioans and an Indianan on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge, announced.
The five-count indictment unsealed Monday charges that since August 2008, the defendants, acting as a Lenawee County, Michigan, militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government.

Attorney General Eric Holder called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists."
The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and proclaims on its home page, "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."
In the Web site's "About Us" section, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded."
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia.
"Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order,' engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing or advocate or adhere to extreme anti-government doctrines," the Southern Poverty Law Center said in a report, "Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism."
The law center also defines Patriot groups as "militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose 'one-world government' on liberty-loving Americans."
The suspects were identified as David Brian Stone, 45; his wife, Tina Stone, 44; his son Joshua Matthew Stone, 21, of Clayton, Michigan; and another son, David Brian Stone Jr., 19, of Adrian, Michigan; Joshua Clough, 28, of Blissfield, Michigan; Michael Meeks, 40, of Manchester, Michigan; Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Indiana; Kristopher Sickles, 27, of Sandusky, Ohio; and Jacob Ward, 33, of Huron, Ohio.
Eight of the nine defendants are in custody, and seven made their initial appearance Monday before U.S. Magistrate Judge Donald A. Scheer, prosecutors said. Joshua Stone is a fugitive, according to prosecutors.
A bond hearing was set for 1 p.m. Wednesday.
Court-appointed counsel will be assigned to the seven suspects who were in court Monday because none of them had attorneys.
According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state and federal law enforcement authorities as the enemy and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.
The indictment alleges the Hutaree group planned to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer in Michigan and then attack officers who would gather for the funeral.
According to the plan, the indictment said, the Hutaree wanted to use improvised explosive devices to attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession. The indictment said those explosive devices, commonly called IEDs, constitute weapons of mass destruction.
Subsequently, the indictment said, Hutaree leader David Brian Stone obtained information about IEDs over the Internet and e-mailed diagrams to a person he believed could manufacture them.
He then had his one of his sons, Joshua Matthew Stone, and others gather materials necessary to manufacture IEDs, the indictment alleges.
According to the indictment, David Brian Stone and David Brian Stone Jr. taught other Hutaree members in June how to make and use explosive devices.
In addition, the grand jury charged all nine defendants with carrying or possessing a firearm during a crime of violence on at least one occasion.
"Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time," McQuade said.
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Old 03-29-10, 02:27 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

IEDs are WMDs?
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Old 03-29-10, 02:52 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
IEDs are WMDs?
Why not? They both roll off the tongue.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:04 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Are you trying to make a connection between the tea party and this militia group?
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Old 03-29-10, 03:06 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Seriously? This is getting so stupid with people buying the party line. A few quotes taken out of context and a small group of red neck white supremacists (who dislike the Republicans just as much as the Democrats, BTW) does not a revolution make.

This is so predictable it would be funny if it weren't also so sad.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:16 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Looks like the Left wants to bring about the Sedition Act of 1918 pt. 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Shine on, you little fascists.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:16 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Last I checked, sedition isn't illegal in the US -- the Alien and Sedition, and Espionage and Sedition acts both expired, and even if they were re-enacted, no modern Supreme Court would uphold them. And rightly so, since they make the PATRIOT Act look like it was drafted by the ACLU.

CRM114, are you seriously proposing such blatantly unconstitutional nonsense?
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Old 03-29-10, 03:18 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Congress members themselves hanging "Don't Tread On Me" banners over the Capitol
is there something wrong with this? I assume you know the history behind the flag.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:23 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

If the thread title had been:

"Sedition, Tea Party, and the Chicken Run Blast 'O Rama"

Well... that would have been awesome.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:28 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
If the thread title had been:

"Sedition, Tea Party, and the Chicken Run Blast 'O Rama"

Well... that would have been awesome.
The thing that pisses me off is the timing of this "raid". This group has been around for years and before Obama they raged against Bush and Zionist plot of 9-11. Now, right wing boogiemen are needed and they get trotted out.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:40 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Now, right wing boogiemen are needed and they get trotted out.
I think that explains it more than anything else... although supposedly they were ready to strike (within a month).
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Old 03-29-10, 03:44 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by nemein View Post
I think that explains it more than anything else... although supposedly they were ready to strike (within a month).
I see that and have no idea if that is true or not. Even so it has nothing to do with "right wingers" or the Tea Party as the OP and every news media outlet seems to suggest.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:45 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Kind of telling how the word "Christian" is right in the headline of the CNN story, yet when it's one of the hundreds of Muslim plots over the last few years, the religious background and motivation of the suspects is purposely downplayed in the story. For example, here's CNN's story on the suicide bombers on the Moscow subway today:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...ex.html?hpt=T2
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Old 03-29-10, 03:52 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
I see that and have no idea if that is true or not. Even so it has nothing to do with "right wingers" or the Tea Party as the OP and every news media outlet seems to suggest.
No disagreement from me on that one. As you say though the OP has a "point" to make.

I also agree w/ Ky-Fi and the point he is making about reporting on Christian compared to Muslim when usually the groups that are doing these types of things have very little in common w/ the mainstream of their supposed religion
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Old 03-29-10, 03:55 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Is all of this the left playing politics or is this real?
Frankly it could be both. There may have been an actual threat from this group... now was it as credible as we are being led to believe, doubtful IMHO. Sure they may have been able to ambush/kill a LEO and potentially do what they wanted to do at the funeral, but as far as starting a full scale war... not likely. Is it being played for all it's worth from the left... I believe it is. They just passed a major piece of legislation that isn't very popular in a very partisan fashion, they need anything they can to divert attention at this point.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:56 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Kind of telling how the word "Christian" is right in the headline of the CNN story, yet when it's one of the hundreds of Muslim plots over the last few years, the religious background and motivation of the suspects is purposely downplayed in the story. For example, here's CNN's story on the suicide bombers on the Moscow subway today:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...ex.html?hpt=T2
It's probably because it's the first time in a long time something like this has happened. Also, check out the headline on this story, from the same group that's believed to be responsible for the subway bombing:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-...sia-s-Caucasus
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Old 03-29-10, 03:56 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

The OP may have an excellent point. Let's wait and see if any Republicans call for the release of these people, or call on anyone to take up the cause now that they have been captured.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:59 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by nemein View Post
Frankly it could be both. There may have been an actual threat from this group... now was it as credible as we are being led to believe, doubtful IMHO. Sure they may have been able to ambush/kill a LEO and potentially do what they wanted to do at the funeral, but as far as starting a full scale war... not likely. Is it being played for all it's worth from the left... I believe it is. They just passed a major piece of legislation that isn't very popular in a very partisan fashion, they need anything they can to divert attention at this point.
See how you think that the government totally overreacted, people's fears are unjustified, the response from the authorities was overkill, the group was unjustly demonized, and so on and so forth, and you try to take some moderate, measured, reasonable perspective on things without running to rash judgement that doesn't necessarily mean you're coming out in support of these people?

That's what people try to post in the illegal immigration thread, in response to your posts.
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Old 03-29-10, 03:59 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

The militia - the most mis-understood group(s) in the country.

It's generally a bunch of guys (often middle-aged) who go out into the woods and play war games.
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Old 03-29-10, 04:05 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Yes, I do have a point to make. I'm not drawing any relationship in my post but leaving THAT up to the discussion in the thread.

1. Sedition is an impeachable offense. Rep Bachmann should know better.
2. The Tea Party is inciting groups of people and groups of people are showing up to their rallies with slogans invoking violence.



3. A militia group (and I like that they have Christian front and center since most Americans only connote Muslims with extremist religious groups. (thank Ky-Fi!)) suddenly appears with a plot to murder law enforcement and start an anti-government revolt. You can separate these events if you like. Again, the purpose of this thread.

4. And yes Venusian, I am aware of the meaning of the flag. But just as the right seems to think it OK to belt out "Liar" at the President a joint session of Congress, the right must also feel it right for members of Congress to step out of the Capitol and incite a crowd that earlier spit on Democrats and made racial and other bigoted remarks to Congress members.

You can certainly keep your head in the sand and insist that the tea party and anti-government speech of late is not hand in hand with remarks involving an armed citizenry. It's amusing seeing this occur over a policy which was basically proposed by Bob Dole in 1994.
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Old 03-29-10, 04:07 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
The OP may have an excellent point. Let's wait and see if any Republicans call for the release of these people, or call on anyone to take up the cause now that they have been captured.
Thanks for the reasoned response.
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Old 03-29-10, 04:07 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

That's what people try to post in the illegal immigration thread, in response to your posts.
I don't recall posting in the immigration thread for quite some time... what posts/responses are you talking about?
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Old 03-29-10, 04:15 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
The militia - the most mis-understood group(s) in the country.

It's generally a bunch of guys (often middle-aged) who go out into the woods and play war games.
Yeah, except this one who were plotting to murder a police officer and others at his funeral. They are misunderstood alright.
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Old 03-29-10, 04:18 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Hell - there's a 'rotten apple' in any group.
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Old 03-29-10, 04:26 PM
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Re: Sedition, Tea Party, and "Christian militia"

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Yes, I do have a point to make. I'm not drawing any relationship in my post but leaving THAT up to the discussion in the thread.

1. Sedition is an impeachable offense. Rep Bachmann should know better.
2. The Tea Party is inciting groups of people and groups of people are showing up to their rallies with slogans invoking violence.



3. A militia group (and I like that they have Christian front and center since most Americans only connote Muslims with extremist religious groups. (thank Ky-Fi!)) suddenly appears with a plot to murder law enforcement and start an anti-government revolt. You can separate these events if you like. Again, the purpose of this thread.

4. And yes Venusian, I am aware of the meaning of the flag. But just as the right seems to think it OK to belt out "Liar" at the President a joint session of Congress, the right must also feel it right for members of Congress to step out of the Capitol and incite a crowd that earlier spit on Democrats and made racial and other bigoted remarks to Congress members.

You can certainly keep your head in the sand and insist that the tea party and anti-government speech of late is not hand in hand with remarks involving an armed citizenry. It's amusing seeing this occur over a policy which was basically proposed by Bob Dole in 1994.

As I posted in an earlier thread; this sort of thing goes on all the time but by nuts from both sides. Clyburn, who is now saying he is being threatened and "N-bombed", said the same thing 2 years ago, only blaming Hillary supporters. Just like the death threats Stupak got before he changed his vote are the same as the ones reported after the fact.

Which ones get reported more?

Racist white separatist kooks like this Hutaree are everywhere, and have been for as long as I remember. East County San Diego used to be a major hot bed for these groups (still is to some extent) and we deal with them all of the time. Most of them also hide behind the label "Christian" and are anything but. Even as a hell bound atheist I know that.

Mentioning them in the same thread as the Tea Party is ridiculous and purposely deceitful. You might as well lump them in with Moveon.org since they both hate Bush and were against the Iraq war.

Last edited by DeputyDave; 03-29-10 at 04:28 PM.
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