Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events
Reload this Page >

Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Old 03-23-10, 09:25 PM
  #26  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 70,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Because Obama is for it.

The best part of that video is how nonplussed the crowd is.
Old 03-23-10, 11:36 PM
  #27  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,623
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
The best part of that video is how nonplussed the crowd is.
I would have expected you to say the best part of the video is what's-his-face who's singing the song.
Old 03-24-10, 01:13 AM
  #28  
Banned by request
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 54,156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Al Jolson?
Old 03-24-10, 01:17 PM
  #29  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Formerly known as "orangecrush18" - still legal though
Posts: 13,846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by WallyOPD View Post
If the debate is about the fact that this is completely unrelated to health care and shouldn't have been inserted into that bill then I agree. That kind of thing happens all the time but that doesn't make it right.

I'm just trying to understand why conservatives would be against ending federal subsidies to an entire industry when that move would also trim the federal budget. I honestly don't follow politics that closely but it seems like they would be applauding that move.
I am all for the move. I would prefer they eliminate all federal education loans and grants though. They only act to inflate the cost of higher education.
Old 03-24-10, 05:34 PM
  #30  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,623
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
I am all for the move. I would prefer they eliminate all federal education loans and grants though. They only act to inflate the cost of higher education.
They almost certainly have that effect, but that's not their only effect. They also allow people to obtain higher education who would not otherwise be able to do so.
Old 03-25-10, 09:45 AM
  #31  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

They shoudl jsut move to a state with a HOPE scholarship

I don't necessarily see a problem with the govt stopping the subsidies. But it appears that fewer loans will be given out which I could see people having a problem with
Old 03-25-10, 09:45 AM
  #32  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Nah, I'll have 5 days after it gets through Congress before Obama will sign it.


I wondered if anyone was going to bring that up about the health bill
Old 03-25-10, 11:39 AM
  #33  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Formerly known as "orangecrush18" - still legal though
Posts: 13,846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
They almost certainly have that effect, but that's not their only effect. They also allow people to obtain higher education who would not otherwise be able to do so.
OK, not the only affect. But, we can both agree that the programs aren't all roses. The loan programs also end up puting a good number of people in a worse position. Particularly poor people who attend "non-traditional" for profit schools which like to prey on people by promising great placement rates at good paying jobs after 18 months of school (with price tags that rival a 4 year state school education). If the loans weren't subsidized they would be properly underwritten and these people wouldn't be able to get loans they can't afford to waste money on those scams.
Old 03-25-10, 09:52 PM
  #34  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
I am all for the move. I would prefer they eliminate all federal education loans and grants though. They only act to inflate the cost of higher education.
the higher costs pay for all the research that the universities are doing now. under clinton they made a plan for universities to do all the long term research that Bell Labs and PARC used to do and let the corporations concentrate on short term product development. at some point in the near future the universities are supposed to start to make enough money from licensing their patent portfolios so the tuition rates will stop growing.
Old 03-25-10, 10:58 PM
  #35  
X
Administrator
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1987
Location: AA-
Posts: 10,763
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
the higher costs pay for all the research that the universities are doing now. under clinton they made a plan for universities to do all the long term research that Bell Labs and PARC used to do and let the corporations concentrate on short term product development. at some point in the near future the universities are supposed to start to make enough money from licensing their patent portfolios so the tuition rates will stop growing.
what?
Old 03-25-10, 11:15 PM
  #36  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Words
Posts: 28,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
OK, not the only affect. But, we can both agree that the programs aren't all roses. The loan programs also end up puting a good number of people in a worse position. Particularly poor people who attend "non-traditional" for profit schools which like to prey on people by promising great placement rates at good paying jobs after 18 months of school (with price tags that rival a 4 year state school education). If the loans weren't subsidized they would be properly underwritten and these people wouldn't be able to get loans they can't afford to waste money on those scams.
Some students take out the max loan, take one class, and spend the rest. Those people are idiots, but it happens a lot.
Old 03-26-10, 09:16 AM
  #37  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

has there been any studies to show what has caused the ridiculous increase in tuition in the past decade?
Old 03-26-10, 09:20 AM
  #38  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,178
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
has there been any studies to show what has caused the ridiculous increase in tuition in the past decade?
That's what I would like to see.
Old 03-26-10, 09:44 AM
  #39  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

I've heard some say it is healthcare but I really doubt that can by all of it since all other costs haven't gone up at the same rate.
Old 03-26-10, 10:06 AM
  #40  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Formerly known as "orangecrush18" - still legal though
Posts: 13,846
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Just one of the first google results:
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...t-so-much.aspx
Why Does College Cost So Much?
By Rich Smith
October 29, 2009 | Comments (69)

Two William & Mary professors tackle the "hot-button issue" of the skyrocketing cost of higher education in a new book to be published by Oxford University Press next year. Here, Fool contributor Rich Smith shares the answers he got from his former economics professor David Feldman, co-author of the book with colleague Robert Archibald.

Why does college cost so much? If you have kids in college -- or kids, period -- in America today, the question's more than academic. It can mean having to make a choice between getting your child a college degree or planning a comfortable retirement for yourself.

As college tuition costs soar, a lot of us wonder why. What's wrong with these people that they keep raising prices that are already unaffordable? And what can we do about it? I sat down with Professor Feldman to talk over these issues, and more.

Rich Smith: So, Professor, let's tackle the question head-on -- does college cost too much?

David Feldman: Not "too" much. "So" much. What we've tried to do in this book is go back over the history of the last 60 years and examine college from an aerial view that is rooted in broader U.S. economic history, comparing cost trends in the higher education "industry" to those of other similar industries. We take each of the common arguments against college costs -- that colleges are dysfunctional, that they engage in arms races with their peers, and that give "Country Club U." amenities to their students -- and examine whether they hold water, whether college costs really are rising faster than they should, and if so, why?

Smith: And ...?

Feldman: And what we've found may surprise you: College costs are rising faster than the inflation rate. But that isn't because they're "country clubs" -- it's more because they're "prep schools."

To prepare an undergraduate these days requires a lot more expensive stuff, like high-intensity lasers and big computing resources, than it did in the past. It costs money, sure, but our students demand it because their potential future employers demand it.

Nor is higher education alone in seeing higher costs. Lots of other industries show trends in cost appreciation that mirror those found in higher education, and there are two key reasons for this -- neither of which supports the "country club" critics. If you look at the trends in education costs at not-for-profit four-year colleges, at two-year community colleges, and at for-profit educational institutions like Apollo Group (Nasdaq: APOL), they're virtually identical, up across the board. Yet you don't have the same "gold-plating" at a two-year community college or for-profit institution as critics suggest afflicts four-year, on-campus universities. So clearly, there's something else driving costs upwards.

To understand what's happening, you need to understand that college is a service. As opposed to manufacturing, where labor is just one input in pricing and improvements in productivity generally lead to lower costs, labor is the primary input in service industries like higher education. This makes college especially vulnerable to cost disease ...

Smith: Hold up a sec. "Cost disease?"

Feldman: Right. That's the real culprit behind the rising cost of college. You see, in a labor market, when one worker's wages rise, so do wages for other workers -- because employers compete to attract them. How does this work in higher education? Improvements in productivity can lead to higher wages at firms like Hewlett-Packard (NYSE: HPQ). But they also raise wages at colleges that must compete for a limited supply of labor.

The problem lies in the fact that when HP raises wages, it can offset higher labor cost with improvements on its other input costs -- more energy-efficient machinery, better manufacturing processes. As a result, PC prices actually get cheaper every year. Colleges are different because their primary input cost -- labor -- is terribly resistant to productivity improvements.

Example: In 1960, students paid roughly the same for tuition and fees as they did for room and board. Today, you see tuition and fees together exceeding room and board by perhaps two to four times. So tuition has been growing much faster.

Why is this? You can make the teaching process more "efficient" by using Blackboard (Nasdaq: BBBB) software and the like. But generally speaking, every move you make to decrease the amount of time a professor spends with students is viewed not as "improved productivity" but as less personal service.

And so costs rise faster than inflation in any service-intensive industry -- higher education, law, or medicine. This is exacerbated by the fact that ever since the 1980s, workers with college degrees and even higher levels of education have become much more expensive than workers without such degrees. This accelerates the rise in the cost of any industry that uses a lot of this well-educated labor, and directly leads to increased costs for service-oriented industries like higher education.

Smith: So what's your take on last week's news that the government is slashing compensation for executives at AIG (NYSE: AIG), Citigroup (NYSE: C), and the other bailout recipients? Would you expect this to depress wages for university professors, for example, and lower college costs?

Feldman: Actually, no. Remember our aerial view! Compensation in finance has soared relative to compensation in many other industries that use similarly educated people. Ask engineering grads. They'll tell you. What happens in one industry, like finance, is not likely to have a big impact on higher-education wages unless it is part of a much larger market movement toward lower compensation for highly educated workers. I don't see that at present.

Smith: So what is the solution?

Feldman: There really isn't any -- this is a solution in search of a problem. You see, the fact is that the same productivity growth that's pushing education costs up by driving wages higher ... drives wages higher. This provides the income needed to pay the higher costs of higher education.

Our research shows that despite the rapid increase in education's cost, over the long haul, higher wages mean families wind up with more money in real dollar terms after paying the tuition bills.

Smith: Good to know. But let's see if we can help our readers keep even more money. From your vantage point at the college, can you see any "bargains" in higher education? How can parents of soon-to-be-college students best spend their dollars wisely?

Feldman: You can get a fine education at many of the nation's flagship public universities, where tuition remains quite low compared to elite private universities. But remember, list price tuition is paid by a small fraction of students at private universities. Between federal financial aid and discounted tuition that most universities offer on a "need" or "merit" basis, very few students pay the list price.

Smith: Professor, before we close, I'd like to ask if you see the high price of higher education shutting out qualified students. Will the 21st century see U.S.-based companies like Intel (Nasdaq: INTC) and Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT) starved of talent?

Feldman: It could happen. While our research shows that a rise in the cost of higher education is not a problem on the whole, it is a problem in certain instances -- namely in how it discourages poorer students from seeking a higher education.

Over the past 30 years, income in the U.S. has become increasingly polarized. More people are becoming very rich -- and more very poor. The hollowing of the middle class is an even bigger affordability issue than cost disease. But we believe that a few common-sense changes to how we distribute financial aid could make real progress towards making college more accessible to those who need it most.

Start with the FAFSA application for federal student aid, which all students seeking Pell Grants much fill out. Currently, students must fill out and submit a FAFSA indicating their income and assets, then apply to colleges, and then find out how much financial aid they qualify for. It's absurd to require students to apply to colleges before they know which colleges they can afford.

Second, the government can improve access to higher education and reduce the price of it (not the cost, mind you, but the price students pay directly) by increasing financial aid. We realize that increased government spending is not a popular subject these days, but if legislators were to offer a universal, standard stipend -- and make this the standard student financial aid package -- this could gain broad support and improve access to higher education across society.

Such financial aid, by the way, would be only an incremental increase over the substantial, but extremely disorganized, system of federal programs that currently exists. As such, it would not cost much more than we are already spending on financial aid. In fact, Prof. Archibald and I have developed new evidence suggesting that increases in federal financial aid lower the list price tuition. It could be that extra federal aid reduces each school's need to discount tuition for its own needy students, and this allows the school to cut the list price tuition faced by everyone else.

The changes we suggest in the federal financial aid system would not cost much more than the current system -- really, they would just make it more straightforward, easier to understand, and more reliable for the students.

Last edited by orangecrush; 03-26-10 at 10:13 AM.
Old 03-26-10, 11:00 AM
  #41  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by X View Post
what?
back in the old days corporate labs like Xerox's, Bell Labs and IBM's did most of the basic research. stuff that might sit in the lab for a few decades with no return on investment and no one with any idea how to monetize it or turn it into a product. Think the first OS GUI in the 1970's made by Xerox.

i've read an article years ago that under Clinton and then Bush they made a strategy to transfer most of the basic research to universities and have them patent this stuff and license it out to anyone that wants to pay the fees. Universities don't have shareholders and no one cares if they carry too many assets or any of the other things public companies have to put up with. and professors like to spend years researching something.

lately it seems like i'll read about some cool thing some university professor makes up on http://slashdot.org and a few years later some company will make a product around it.

the downside is that someone has to pay for it until the invention produces licensing revenue to cover the cost of the next big thing that is in the lab now.

and another reason why tuition rates are going up is that colleges are offering more non-classroom services. few years ago my wife applied for a job at a major university to counsel people not to kill themselves after a rash of suicides at the school. it paid very well and a nice benefit was that your kids go to school for free there as long as you work there.

add in all the other services like internet, email and others that weren't around 30 years ago for students that everyone says colleges need to provide.

and someone has to pay for all the scholarships and tuition breaks that a lot of students get. someone i work with has a son in NYU now and last i heard he's going there for free because he was one of the top HS graduates in his class
Old 03-26-10, 11:07 AM
  #42  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,178
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

I don't buy the internet argument. What would a student pay independently for that? $50-ish per month? Even over a full year, that's only $600 and that's an individual.....costs with economies of scale are certainly less when you are dealing with thousands of students. Plus I assume that they don't have phones in rooms anymore (students have mobile phones paid for themselves) so that somewhat offsets the internet cost.
Old 03-26-10, 11:15 AM
  #43  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

http://www.nyu.edu/budget2010/budget/operating.htm

NYU budget as an example

Old 03-26-10, 11:18 AM
  #44  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,178
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

My niece's first choice is NYU. Insane tuition.
Old 03-26-10, 11:22 AM
  #45  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

$593 million 2010 budget for the main campus and they are about to file a plan with NYC to expand to accommodate 40% more students over the next 20 years. it will cost billions of $$$ to buy and build the new facilities which will be paid by taking on debt which will be repaid from future tuition payments.

http://www.nyu.edu/budget2010/budget/capital.html

Old 03-26-10, 11:23 AM
  #46  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
My niece's first choice is NYU. Insane tuition.
worth every penny. just ask Lady Gaga
Old 03-26-10, 12:04 PM
  #47  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

We had every dorm room wired for internet when I was in school in 1998. Did Internet costs skyrocket since then?
Old 03-26-10, 12:42 PM
  #48  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

and over the last 10 years colleges have also added wifi and since students suck up bandwidth they have had to buy all kinds of management tools. add in the stream of new services like suicide counseling and whatever since every someone kills themselves or you get an incident like VA Tech someone sues the school saying they should have had some service to prevent it. it all has to be paid for.

the suicide counseling job my wife applied for a few years ago paid close to $70,000 plus nice benefits. health costs are increasing almost 10% a year, someone has to pay for it
Old 03-26-10, 02:01 PM
  #49  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,178
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

Yeah, but how many suicide couselers are they hiring? 1 or 2 per school, so you're talking about maybe $200K tops when you include benefits. I fully understand that costs rise over time, but college tuition has risen dramatically and I still have yet to see a reasonable explanation for it.
Old 03-26-10, 02:06 PM
  #50  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Student loan reform is in healthcare bill

it's when you combine all these little services schools add every year with the need to renovate/update current classrooms

for NYU 80% of the budget is salaries and it's buildings. we just had a decade of double digit benefit cost growth as well as double digit energy cost growth. every year expenses go up so they have to find a way to bring in more money

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.