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Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Old 01-14-11, 08:55 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
(Also and FYI, the President doesn't pass laws)
Sure, but they do sign them or veto them. Almost every president gets more credit/blame for the various bills they sign into law than they deserve.
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Old 01-14-11, 09:03 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

I think Obama's involvement in this bill would be hard to dispute, considering he hosted a special TV gathering dedicated to it and, upon its passing, personally hoisted it as a banner of achievement (with work to be done! always room for improvement! blahbity blabuty blah!)
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Old 01-14-11, 09:51 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Oh, no doubt the President was involved in crafting the law, but when you're talking about some mythical idea of a "Chicago politician," it helps to remember that most of the people who did most of the work on the law have nothing to do with Chicago.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:15 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/...ex.html?hpt=T2

So the attempts to repeal have begun. I see no point in c/p the entire article, but CNN does a decent enough recap.

Everyone seems to agree a repeal will not happen. Republicans seem to think they can "defund" the bill, tho there is question to that.

Dems' standing by the law. Tho I have read some other articles noting there may be talk of eliminating or reviewing certain provisions.

And the Dems say without the law some would be "at risk" to losing their coverage and give a silly huge number. They might as well had said everyone was at risk. The real question is who would have really lost their coverage and if they did would they have been able to get coverage in the existing system.

They also said that "more" people now have coverage. Ok...but how many and why?
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Old 01-19-11, 01:27 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

More people also have exemptions to Obamacare. Such well written stuff.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:27 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/...ex.html?hpt=T2

So the attempts to repeal have begun. I see no point in c/p the entire article, but CNN does a decent enough recap.

Everyone seems to agree a repeal will not happen. Republicans seem to think they can "defund" the bill, tho there is question to that.

Dems' standing by the law. Tho I have read some other articles noting there may be talk of eliminating or reviewing certain provisions.

And the Dems say without the law some would be "at risk" to losing their coverage and give a silly huge number. They might as well had said everyone was at risk. The real question is who would have really lost their coverage and if they did would they have been able to get coverage in the existing system.

They also said that "more" people now have coverage. Ok...but how many and why?
They don't have to defund it - they can simply not fund it.
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Old 01-19-11, 01:33 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
They don't have to defund it - they can simply not fund it.
Well I have done own research or linked through, but evidently the law includes a certain amount of funding already???
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Old 01-19-11, 01:35 PM
  #1033  
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
And the Dems say without the law some would be "at risk" to losing their coverage and give a silly huge number. They might as well had said everyone was at risk.
Just saw that. 2010 US population is 308 million. Democrats claim that nearly 130 million non-elderly would be at risk of losing their coverage. In 2000 there were 35 million people 65 or older. So 130 million of 273 million would be at risk of losing their coverage.

I think they later mentioned Haliburton.
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Old 01-19-11, 10:31 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Just saw that. 2010 US population is 308 million. Democrats claim that nearly 130 million non-elderly would be at risk of losing their coverage. In 2000 there were 35 million people 65 or older. So 130 million of 273 million would be at risk of losing their coverage.

I think they later mentioned Haliburton.
Yea...well again it is easy to say "your at risk of losing your coverage". I get group coverage through my work. Been with them over 20 years. You could still say I'm at risk. What if I leave the company, what if I get fired, what if my company decides to stop providing it, what if my company goes out of business, etc, etc. All of these have almost zero chance of happening. But since it is not zero I'm at risk!

But then the 2nd part is, if any of the above happened, I could buy coverage from somewhere else. Or get a job with a company that offers it.

I mean come on...lets be a little realistic with these.
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Old 01-19-11, 10:40 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yea...well again it is easy to say "your at risk of losing your coverage". I get group coverage through my work. Been with them over 20 years. You could still say I'm at risk. What if I leave the company, what if I get fired, what if my company decides to stop providing it, what if my company goes out of business, etc, etc. All of these have almost zero chance of happening. But since it is not zero I'm at risk!

But then the 2nd part is, if any of the above happened, I could buy coverage from somewhere else. Or get a job with a company that offers it.

I mean come on...lets be a little realistic with these.
The worry that something could happen if something happens. Didn't they start doing that with poverty and hunger around November? People under the poverty line had enough food but there was concern that they might not, so they used a term like "threat of hunger" or some such bullshit?

Everyone needs a map of all the benefits they get throughout life so that there is no uncertainty, I suppose. Otherwise, it might be scary at times.
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Old 01-20-11, 06:00 AM
  #1036  
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

What surprised me about the repeal vote was that only 4 Democrats voted to repeal. I thought 12-15 would vote for repeal.
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Old 01-20-11, 10:28 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

2 years away from another election, so why buck your party and president?
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Old 01-20-11, 11:13 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
2 years away from another election, so why buck your party and president?
That might not be true in the Senate.
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Old 01-20-11, 11:15 AM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
What surprised me about the repeal vote was that only 4 Democrats voted to repeal. I thought 12-15 would vote for repeal.
Maybe they were afraid of being equated to Nazis?

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01...g-lie-on-heal/

That new tone of "civility" lasted what, a week? Now the opposition is a group that you need to firebomb into submission?
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Old 01-20-11, 02:37 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by X View Post
Maybe they were afraid of being equated to Nazis?

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01...g-lie-on-heal/

That new tone of "civility" lasted what, a week? Now the opposition is a group that you need to firebomb into submission?
"we need to be less hostile and more civil" means "you need to be less hostile and more civil."
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Old 01-22-11, 04:51 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Not to bore the members with personal matters, but I post this to indicate the unbelievable cost of medical care now.

Friday - a week ago - I had an angiogram performed. I went to the hospital at 9:00 A.M. & went home at 7:00 P.M. The cost of the procedure was almost $17,000.00 dollars. This didn't include the cardiolist's fee.

I now don't wonder why people (a bunch of them) file for bankruptcy.

When is it going to stop - never?
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Old 01-22-11, 05:47 PM
  #1042  
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Not to bore the members with personal matters, but I post this to indicate the unbelievable cost of medical care now.

Friday - a week ago - I had an angiogram performed. I went to the hospital at 9:00 A.M. & went home at 7:00 P.M. The cost of the procedure was almost $17,000.00 dollars. This didn't include the cardiolist's fee.

I now don't wonder why people (a bunch of them) file for bankruptcy.

When is it going to stop - never?
Wait. So your now saying it is the cost of the product, NOT the super evil insurance companies?

And of course none of the new laws or ObamaCare do anything to curtail those costs (if they can be curtail).

Hence my argument. Your claim was likely $20,000 when all said in done. Your insurance company charged you a premium to cover,

$20,000 claim
$XX for expenses (including those CEO salaries)
$XX for profits

Isn't it obvious that expenses and profits are just pennys compared to claim payments?

If you REALLY want to reduce insurance costs you have to do something about the cost of claim payments.
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Old 01-22-11, 08:14 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Not to bore the members with personal matters, but I post this to indicate the unbelievable cost of medical care now.

Friday - a week ago - I had an angiogram performed. I went to the hospital at 9:00 A.M. & went home at 7:00 P.M. The cost of the procedure was almost $17,000.00 dollars. This didn't include the cardiolist's fee.

I now don't wonder why people (a bunch of them) file for bankruptcy.

When is it going to stop - never?
My wife just had a procedure as well. We pay $1,600 a month for insurance, the operation and hospital stay was $20,000 and our portion of it was $2,000. Amazing to think that if we don't have any other issues, they will still make money off of us. Amazing to think how much we have paid over the years and never used it for anything significant.

Ah, the other one that amazed me. The birth of our nearly 5 year old was right at $10,000 at the time, and we had no out of pocket for that. My son broke his arm last year (not a compound fracture, but did have pins put in) and the total cost of treatment on that was just over $10,000 with us having over $1,000 out of pocket.

It would be interesting to know what a delivery costs today as compared to our last child.
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Old 01-23-11, 03:24 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
My wife just had a procedure as well. We pay $1,600 a month for insurance, the operation and hospital stay was $20,000 and our portion of it was $2,000. Amazing to think that if we don't have any other issues, they will still make money off of us. Amazing to think how much we have paid over the years and never used it for anything significant.

Ah, the other one that amazed me. The birth of our nearly 5 year old was right at $10,000 at the time, and we had no out of pocket for that. My son broke his arm last year (not a compound fracture, but did have pins put in) and the total cost of treatment on that was just over $10,000 with us having over $1,000 out of pocket.

It would be interesting to know what a delivery costs today as compared to our last child.
Your bringing up if the true concept of insurance works for health insurance. Me and my family are in the same boat. There is no way the health insurance company will EVER make money on me. EVER. Two kids, boy with 3 broken fingers (2 surgery's w/specialist and pins), wife with "female" stuff, me with sever pneumonia (10 days in hospital) and girl with colitis (7 days in hospital).

The traditional insurance model is one of large number. Where a lot of people pay in, but few have claims. The model can't work if everyone has claims (well it can, but then you can't charge enough on premiums).

An easier example is in Homeowners insurance. California have wild fires and the insurance company pay $300,000 for that home that the owner maybe paid $2,000 a year for coverage. It works cause everyone in California is paying in, yet few will ever be effected by a fire.

Of course the question becomes, what is the pool? Florida would like Ohio to be in the pool with them (for hurricanes). And smokers and people with diabetes would like to be in the pool with people who don't smoke/have an on going illness for health insurance.

Non-smokers don't want pay for the ongoing issues with smokers. However, if your pool is only smokers than it won't work as "everyone" will turn in a claim.

Its a tough call. But to make real impacts tough calls are needed (even if I don't agree with them).
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Old 01-24-11, 02:02 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
http://biggovernment.com/tfitton/201...ver-documents/

Judicial Watch Sues HHS to Obtain Obamacare Waiver Documents

by Tom Fitton

January 12, 2011

According to an official estimate by the Obama Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), at least 222 companies and unions have received waivers from Obamacare so far. Yet, as this number continues to soar, HHS refuses to explain to the American people how decisions are being made regarding which organizations receive a waiver and which do not.

One certainly cannot find any explanation in the Obamacare law itself. The Obama administration did not anticipate (despite repeated warnings) how much chaos would be created by the requirements of their massive healthcare overhaul. And so they have been forced to resort to a slapdash and politicized approach where officials at HHS are reviewing requests on a case-by-case basis with no set standards in place.

Now, here’s why this seemingly arbitrary and capricious policy is so dangerous: Companies able to secure these coveted Obamacare exemptions are given an unfair competitive advantage over their rivals — which, of course, blows the door wide open to influence peddling and corruption. Just yesterday, Karl Rove pointed out that the leftist Obama ally AARP, which spent millions on ads for Obama’s health “reform” effort, received an “extravagant gift” from Obama in the form of the very waivers Judicial Watch is investigating.

In order to make sure this doesn’t happen, we need transparency.

That’s why Judicial Watch filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit against HHS on December 3, 2010. We want the truth behind these Obamacare waiver decisions and here’s what we’re after:

A. All records concerning the decision to grant waivers of the Annual Limits Requirements of PHS Act Section 2711; and

B. All communications between McDonald’s Corp. and HHS concerning Annual Limits Requirements.

(The time frame for this request is from March 2010 to the present.)

We filed our original FOIA request on October 7, 2010, and HHS was required by law to respond by November 8, 2010. However, to date, HHS has failed to produce any records or provide a justification for withholding responsive records. Nor has the agency indicated when a response is forthcoming.

Regarding these waivers, you may recall that McDonald’s corporation tipped the first domino.

In September 2010, McDonald’s announced it would have to eliminate a health insurance program for nearly 30,000 low wage employees due to an Obamacare requirement that 80 to 85% of all insurance premium revenue be spent on patient care. Due to the high administrative costs associated with this type of health coverage program (known as a mini-med plan), McDonald’s insurer indicated it could not possibly meet the Obamacare requirement. HHS provided McDonald’s a one-year waiver concerning the Obamacare mandate and has been deluged with waiver requests from hundreds of other companies and unions since.

The Wall Street Journal deemed the McDonald’s waiver request, “one of the clearest indications that new [Obamacare] rules may disrupt workers’ health plans as the law ripples through the real world.”

But there are others. For example, in September 2010, The Wall Street Journal also reported that health insurers have been forced to raise premiums “as a direct result of the health overhaul.”

And yet, despite all of the chaos created by Obamacare “rippling” through the real world, all we get from the Obama administration is deafening silence and flagrant stonewalling. It appears Kathleen Sebelius’ HHS is more than willing to violate the Freedom of Information Act to keep Americans in the dark about these Obamacare failures. Secretary Sebelius might want to begin her implementation of Obamacare by obeying federal law regarding public records.

The Obama administration must make this waiver process completely transparent to the American people so they can be assured that the process is not infected by corruption.

So much for the "most transparent Congress/President in history."

What do the supporters of Obamacare here at DVD talk think of these waivers?

And what do you think of the the government's refusal to respond to the FOIA request to explain the criteria that are used to determine who gets a waiver and who does not?

Giving waivers to unions who supported Obamacare is especially ridiculous. "We want everyone else to live under these rules, but we shouldn't have to."

Last edited by grundle; 01-24-11 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 01-24-11, 03:36 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Did you forget that you are signed in as grundle or not see that you originally posted that?
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Old 01-24-11, 07:13 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Did you forget that you are signed in as grundle or not see that you originally posted that?
I knew I was quoting myself.

But there wasn't much response to it the first time I posted it. I especially want to know what the supporters of Obamacare think of the waivers, and of the unions that supported Obamacare getting waivers.
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Old 01-24-11, 07:26 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
there wasn't much response to it the first time I posted it. I especially want to know what the supporters of Obamacare think of the waivers, and of the unions that supported Obamacare getting waivers.
They'd rather not talk about it.
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Old 01-25-11, 12:13 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
They'd rather not talk about it.
Yeah - they've really painted themselves into a corner on this one.
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Old 01-25-11, 12:24 PM
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Re: Health Care discussion continues - part 8

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