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"Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

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"Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Old 02-03-10, 01:55 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Was Kenneth Starr Paula Jones' attorney? Was this the scope of his investigation?

Some comfortably allow this special prosecutor to simply jump all over to find any malfeasance. Would "Do you like fellatio?" be an appropriate question too?
Honestly, I didn't follow the case or the investigation in any real capacity because I didn't care the slightest about politics at the time. So I'm only basing my statements on things I've heard since and will defer to people here more knowledgeable about the details. You could be right that it was entirely inappropriate.
Old 02-03-10, 02:15 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

I find it comical that perjury shouldn't count as perjury because of the nature of the question.
Old 02-03-10, 02:17 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I understand the technical validity of the impeachment, yes. Do I believe the "perjury" charge should have ever been leveled in the first place? No. I do not believe a President's fidelity is any business of anyone and placing him in that position was unfair. I understand that many feel that Clinton's "lying" about his fidelity was a high crime. I find that comical.
I tend to agree in principle, but I'm not sure I agree when it is the president. I think you have to give up your personal life if you are going to be in that office. If you don't admit an infidelity under oath, what else can be used to manipulate you to keep someone from letting the secret out? That's extreme, I know, but so is being a president. But impeachment, once that was found to be the perjury, was probably over the top.
Old 02-03-10, 02:22 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
When he lies under oath it's no longer simply "lying", nor is it "perjury." It's perjury, which certainly falls under the category of high crimes and misdemeanors.
Old 02-03-10, 02:27 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Maybe you ought to explain how 50% of workers pay no taxes because that is simply not true.
Sorry, you are correct. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

They pay 2.89% of the entire tax revenue.

I agree with the first part of that sentence, and generally agree that if the economy sucks, the voters will blame Democrats. However, if you think that Obama's tax policies are the reason the economy sucks, you've been drinking too much right-wing pundit Kool Aid.
He hasn't done much on tax, so I don't think that it is. His fiscal policies. bailout policies, stimulus policies, green energy policies, health care policies, cap and trade policies, etc. have a much bigger impact.

Individually, poor people generally don't create jobs. In the aggregate, they sure as hell do, and a guy who makes his living renting property to poor people ought to know that.
This isn't even a chicken and egg deal. Poor people need to have a job first to be able to create them in the aggregate. The people with money aren't hiring the people without money because of the reasons mentioned before (in part). And I don't make my living off of renting property to poor people. But I can see that they do generally keep the beer and tobacco industry going, which we then raise taxes on, which gets passed on to poor people, which goes to DC. So maybe they do pay taxes...just not the ones we are talking about.
Old 02-03-10, 02:50 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
I find it comical that perjury shouldn't count as perjury because of the nature of the question.
I never said it shouldn't count. They got him on it. There is no denying it. I merely said the chain of events was comical.
Old 02-03-10, 02:51 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I tend to agree in principle, but I'm not sure I agree when it is the president. I think you have to give up your personal life if you are going to be in that office. If you don't admit an infidelity under oath, what else can be used to manipulate you to keep someone from letting the secret out? That's extreme, I know, but so is being a president. But impeachment, once that was found to be the perjury, was probably over the top.
Should we put our President under oath on a regular interval and ask him if he is faithful to his wife?
Old 02-03-10, 02:51 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Sorry, you are correct. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

They pay 2.89% of the entire tax revenue.
That's not what your link says.

(Hint: There's a big, big, big difference between "taxes" and "federal income taxes.")

This isn't even a chicken and egg deal. Poor people need to have a job first to be able to create them in the aggregate. The people with money aren't hiring the people without money because of the reasons mentioned before (in part). And I don't make my living off of renting property to poor people. But I can see that they do generally keep the beer and tobacco industry going, which we then raise taxes on, which gets passed on to poor people, which goes to DC. So maybe they do pay taxes...just not the ones we are talking about.
It's macroeconomics 101 that business owners hire labor, who use their income to buy things, which spurs demand, which leads to business owners hiring more labor all in a great big circle. Take out any part of the circle (including the rich business owners, but also including the poor laborers) and the whole thing falls apart.
Old 02-03-10, 02:54 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Should we put our President under oath on a regular interval and ask him if he is faithful to his wife?
And that just what to do with lying to a federal grand jury under oath and to a civil deposition under eoath?
Old 02-03-10, 02:55 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Should we put our President under oath on a regular interval and ask him if he is faithful to his wife?
no.
Old 02-03-10, 03:02 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
(Hint: There's a big, big, big difference between "taxes" and "federal income taxes.")
True. Even illegal aliens pay sales tax.
Old 02-03-10, 03:21 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

I will call it as I see it. It is political marketing which is passed on by the powers that be that control the GOP. People on the Right feel that using the term Socialist scares the sheep who make their voting decision based on emotion. The term Liberal has been so washed out and overused it doesnt scare people anymore. This is done by both parties. Seems to me I recall Bush and Chaney being called Nazi's or Evil by many on the Left. Google Bush Nazi and you get 6.3 million hits. Google Obama Socialist and get 4.9 million. On the first page is a video of George Soros comparing Bush to Nazis.



Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
You know, I started to write up a defense of fairness in the tax system, but then I thought "WTF!? Do I really need to explain to these people why fairness is a good thing? Am I talking to a bunch of kindergarteners?"

So, carry on, and good luck with your "Down with Fairness!" message this November.
Any politician who would raise a tax based on fairness that actually reduces revenue to the government (and that was the context of the question asked during the debate) is not very bright.

So should we have a percieved fairness or stupidity?

There are lots of ways that the government could reform tax policy that would achieve fairness, but that doesnt achieve the goal of pouring salt in the wound that Obama apparantey wants.
Old 02-03-10, 03:51 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Should we put our President under oath on a regular interval and ask him if he is faithful to his wife?
I'm okay with the president simply telling the truth when he is put under oath. That really doesn't seem like too much to ask.
Old 02-03-10, 03:53 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I'm okay with the president simply telling the truth when he is put under oath.
Isn't that a bit like asking a fish to walk on its feet when it's out of the water?
Old 02-03-10, 03:59 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
That's not what your link says.

(Hint: There's a big, big, big difference between "taxes" and "federal income taxes.")
So then you think the income taxes shouldn't be changed to make them more "fair?"

It's macroeconomics 101 that business owners hire labor, who use their income to buy things, which spurs demand, which leads to business owners hiring more labor all in a great big circle. Take out any part of the circle (including the rich business owners, but also including the poor laborers) and the whole thing falls apart.
Business owners hire labor to make them money. The cost of business is becoming an unknown because of the desire to force more taxes on businesses for health care, or because of carbon emmissions. Obama is not business friendly. Hell, he isn't even business neutral. And worse yet, he isn't business savy, and has almost no one around him that is. So their big plan is to give small businesses a $5,000 credit for each hire. How fucking stupid is that? The only reason to hire someone is if they are going to make you money. And the cost of most employees is enough that no one is going to be tipped over the edge for $5,000. It's nice if you get it, but it won't do anything to make businesses want to hire when they couldn't before. I can't believe how stupid Obama is on that one.

And there is almost always an endless supply of poor labor force.
Old 02-03-10, 04:15 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
When he lies under oath it's no longer simply "lying", nor is it "perjury." It's perjury, which certainly falls under the category of high crimes and misdemeanors.
The fact that the question could be asked because of a law that Clinton signed with great fanfare is just icing on der Schadenfreudekuchen.
Old 02-03-10, 04:29 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So then you think the income taxes shouldn't be changed to make them more "fair?"
I actually think our income tax system should be more progressive. I would keep current tax rates more or less where they are, but I would add a few additional brackets above the ones we have now and would get increasingly confiscatory. For people with incomes of more than a million or two dollars, I'd take us back to Kennedy levels.

I'd also index income by zip code, but that's a whole other discussion.

Business owners hire labor to make them money. The cost of business is becoming an unknown because of the desire to force more taxes on businesses for health care, or because of carbon emmissions. Obama is not business friendly. Hell, he isn't even business neutral. And worse yet, he isn't business savy, and has almost no one around him that is. So their big plan is to give small businesses a $5,000 credit for each hire. How fucking stupid is that? The only reason to hire someone is if they are going to make you money. And the cost of most employees is enough that no one is going to be tipped over the edge for $5,000. It's nice if you get it, but it won't do anything to make businesses want to hire when they couldn't before. I can't believe how stupid Obama is on that one.

And there is almost always an endless supply of poor labor force.
That post is so full of right-wing bromides that it looks like a Sean Hannity transcript threw up. I'll just say that I find it hard to believe that reducing the cost of labor by $5,000 per employee will have zero effect on hiring.
Old 02-03-10, 04:36 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I'll just say that I find it hard to believe that reducing the cost of labor by $5,000 per employee will have zero effect on hiring.
I think it depends on the type of job.
Old 02-03-10, 04:38 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I'd also index income by zip code, but that's a whole other discussion.
obviously I would fight that tooth and nail. And because there are a lot more senators in states where it would be bad for the state, I don't worry about it happening.

That post is so full of right-wing bromides that it looks like a Sean Hannity transcript threw up. I'll just say that I find it hard to believe that reducing the cost of labor by $5,000 per employee will have zero effect on hiring.
I'll take your word for it. Hopefully if Hannity says the same things I do, I at least say them in a nicer way.

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say we have a guy making only $10 an hour. He makes about $20,000 a year. Is $5,000 a fair amount for health insurance benefits (I really don't know what is fair for that, so I am trying to be conservative)? Unemployment taxes, Labor & Industries, 7+% for social security, sick days, etc. So what is the fair true cost of that employee to the employer? Again, I'm guessing, but I would think $30-$35,000 seems fair. And like all things Obama, the break runs out and you now have the full cost of another employee after that year (I don't know how long you have to keep them, etc.). Unless there is a position that needed to be filled anyway, I don't see that as a tipping point. You, from your experience, can certainly disagree. I simply don't think it will do anything.

And that is for a very low paying job.
Old 02-03-10, 05:58 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
obviously I would fight that tooth and nail. And because there are a lot more senators in states where it would be bad for the state, I don't worry about it happening.



I'll take your word for it. Hopefully if Hannity says the same things I do, I at least say them in a nicer way.

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say we have a guy making only $10 an hour. He makes about $20,000 a year. Is $5,000 a fair amount for health insurance benefits (I really don't know what is fair for that, so I am trying to be conservative)? Unemployment taxes, Labor & Industries, 7+% for social security, sick days, etc. So what is the fair true cost of that employee to the employer? Again, I'm guessing, but I would think $30-$35,000 seems fair. And like all things Obama, the break runs out and you now have the full cost of another employee after that year (I don't know how long you have to keep them, etc.). Unless there is a position that needed to be filled anyway, I don't see that as a tipping point. You, from your experience, can certainly disagree. I simply don't think it will do anything.

And that is for a very low paying job.
The issue isn't how much the guy costs, but how much he costs compared to how much revenue he brings in. If a guy costs me $50,000 between salary, benefits, and taxes, then I need him to bring in $50,000.01 in revenues before it makes sense for me to hire him. With the credit, I only need him to bring in $45,000.01 in revenues before it makes sense for me to hire him. Surely there must be some jobs out there for which this $5,000 credit moves the employee from unprofitable to profitable. How many there are will depend on the slope of the demand curve for labor, but unless the demand for labor is perfectly inelastic, there will be some.
Old 02-03-10, 06:19 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Comunista, Comunista, Comunista!!!
Old 02-03-10, 06:25 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
The issue isn't how much the guy costs, but how much he costs compared to how much revenue he brings in. If a guy costs me $50,000 between salary, benefits, and taxes, then I need him to bring in $50,000.01 in revenues before it makes sense for me to hire him. With the credit, I only need him to bring in $45,000.01 in revenues before it makes sense for me to hire him. Surely there must be some jobs out there for which this $5,000 credit moves the employee from unprofitable to profitable. How many there are will depend on the slope of the demand curve for labor, but unless the demand for labor is perfectly inelastic, there will be some.
The greatest accountants cannot bring that to such an exact point with accuracy. Most small businesses don't even have their own accountants on staff. So I don't think you ever get to the penny point, but you wait until there is enough money to matter. And i don't think anyone is that close to the bubble. Again, you can disagree based on your knowledge of running a small business, but I don't see it that way based on mine.
Old 02-03-10, 06:50 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Yeah, like I'm going to hire an employee and deal with their crap for a penny of profit... I'd be better off recycling cans.

Thousands of cans! <img src="http://www.imageadventures.com/other/bananaCash.gif">
Old 02-03-10, 06:56 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
<img src="http://www.imageadventures.com/other/bananaCash.gif">
Thor's banana rakes the big cash.
Old 02-03-10, 08:32 PM
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Re: "Poll: Majority of Republicans believe Obama is a 'socialist' "

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I understand the technical validity of the impeachment, yes. Do I believe the "perjury" charge should have ever been leveled in the first place? No. I do not believe a President's fidelity is any business of anyone and placing him in that position was unfair. I understand that many feel that Clinton's "lying" about his fidelity was a high crime. I find that comical.
And I don't find it at all comical (or shocking) that you think Clinton (a lawyer) had the right to decide what to lie or not lie about while testifying. I mean, he had to lie to protect himself, right? No need to suffer a penalty for your actions, if only you can lie about it. It would be awesome precedence to have.

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