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47% will pay no federal income tax

Old 10-01-09, 10:01 AM
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47% will pay no federal income tax

Figured we could use something other than healthcare and war

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/t...ney_topstories

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Most people think they pay too much to Uncle Sam, but for some people it simply is not true.

In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

Some in that group will even get additional money from the government because they qualify for refundable tax breaks.

The ranks of those whose major federal tax burdens net out at zero -- or less -- is on the rise. The center's original 2009 estimate was 38%. That was before enactment in February of the $787 billion economic recovery package, which included a host of new or expanded tax breaks.

The issue doesn't get a lot of attention even as lawmakers debate how to pay for policy initiatives like health reform, whether to extend the Bush tax cuts and how to reduce the deficit.

The vast majority of households making up to $30,000 fall into the category, as do nearly half of all households making between $30,000 and $40,000.

As you move up the income scale the percentages drop.

Nearly 22% of those making between $50,000 and $75,000 end up with no federal income tax liability or negative liability as do 9% of households with incomes between $75,000 and $100,000.

Of course, income taxes don't tell the whole story. Workers are also subject to payroll taxes, which support Social Security and Medicare.

When considering federal income taxes in combination with payroll taxes, the percent of households with a net liability of zero or less is estimated to be 24% this year, according to the Tax Policy Center's estimates.





That doesn't seem right to me.

I do the taxes for most of my extended family and there is one household in there who didn't have a income tax liability in years. I think they finally had a little last year. The tax system is jacked up.
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Old 10-01-09, 11:00 AM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
Figured we could use something other than healthcare and war

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/t...ney_topstories

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Most people think they pay too much to Uncle Sam, but for some people it simply is not true.

In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

Some in that group will even get additional money from the government because they qualify for refundable tax breaks.

The ranks of those whose major federal tax burdens net out at zero -- or less -- is on the rise. The center's original 2009 estimate was 38%. That was before enactment in February of the $787 billion economic recovery package, which included a host of new or expanded tax breaks.

The issue doesn't get a lot of attention even as lawmakers debate how to pay for policy initiatives like health reform, whether to extend the Bush tax cuts and how to reduce the deficit.

The vast majority of households making up to $30,000 fall into the category, as do nearly half of all households making between $30,000 and $40,000.

As you move up the income scale the percentages drop.

Nearly 22% of those making between $50,000 and $75,000 end up with no federal income tax liability or negative liability as do 9% of households with incomes between $75,000 and $100,000.

Of course, income taxes don't tell the whole story. Workers are also subject to payroll taxes, which support Social Security and Medicare.

When considering federal income taxes in combination with payroll taxes, the percent of households with a net liability of zero or less is estimated to be 24% this year, according to the Tax Policy Center's estimates.





That doesn't seem right to me.

I do the taxes for most of my extended family and there is one household in there who didn't have a income tax liability in years. I think they finally had a little last year. The tax system is jacked up.
If you are a nuclear family (w/ multiple kids) and making about the median income, it is pretty easy to get to a negative federal tax rate. I have had a negative rate for about 5 years now.

The above numbers are why I hate it when people say the rich don't pay their fair share. If it is unfair, it is do to the fact that the poor/lower middle don't pay their fair share.
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Old 10-01-09, 11:29 AM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Where in any of this data can you conclude that the rich pay their fair share?
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Old 10-01-09, 11:35 AM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

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Old 10-01-09, 11:39 AM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Where in any of this data can you conclude that the rich pay their fair share?
If I understand what you're asking...you can't. "Fair" is a subjective term. You can't decide if the rich or poor (which are also subjective terms) are paying their "fair" share as "fair" will be different for different people.
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Old 10-01-09, 11:58 AM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Where in any of this data can you conclude that the rich pay their fair share?
In 2009, roughly 47% of households, or 71 million, will not owe any federal income tax, according to estimates by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.
If 47% of households pay nothing, is that fair to the 53% of households that pay everything?

I think that is what he was driving at. On the surface, it doesn't seem fair that 53% of households pay 100% of the tax.
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Old 10-01-09, 12:00 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

This should make Republicans happy, who like low taxes.
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Old 10-01-09, 12:04 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
This should make Republicans happy, who like low taxes.
Low and "fair."

Freaking poor people are paying their way. Lazy bastards.
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Old 10-01-09, 12:06 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post
On the surface, it doesn't seem fair that 53% of households pay 100% of the tax.
I agree, but I'm still happy I'm part of the 53% instead of part of the 47%.

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Old 10-01-09, 12:10 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Sounds like the increase is primarily driven by tax breaks in the recovery package, and that the majority of households with no federal income tax burden earn less than $30,000 a year. I don't really have a problem with this, given the recession.

I imagine soon we'll be told that tax breaks are only good and effective when limited to the fewest number of people with the most income and wealth.

I'm not sure what's 'fair', but I don't think families earning around 30k are exactly living it up.
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Old 10-01-09, 12:19 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

I just got my $10k property-tax bill, so fuck this - I don't care that it's not federal, I feel like I'm getting ass raped here.
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Old 10-01-09, 01:13 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by 4KRG View Post
On the surface, it doesn't seem fair that 53% of households pay 100% of the tax.
You should move to Shangri-La. But down there, it's anything goes. They wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people!

Personally, I'd be even more comfortable with 50%.
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Old 10-01-09, 01:18 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Sounds like income redistribution to me.
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Old 10-01-09, 01:55 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
Sounds like income redistribution to me.
Not to be obvious or anything, but practically everything the government does redistributes income from one group to another group. Sometimes it flows up, sometimes it flows down.
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Old 10-01-09, 02:03 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

It's a misnomer that lower income people are getting away with something by not paying much in income tax and it's a misnomer that upper income people are not paying their fair share with regard to income tax.

That Lucky Ducky fellow on the other hand...
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Old 10-01-09, 02:07 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by Cheato View Post
You should move to Shangri-La. But down there, it's anything goes. They wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people!

Personally, I'd be even more comfortable with 50%.
You should read things more carefully before you make comments.
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Old 10-01-09, 02:47 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Not to be obvious or anything, but practically everything the government does redistributes income from one group to another group. Sometimes it flows up, sometimes it flows down.
When has it flown up?
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Old 10-01-09, 03:14 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
When has it flown up?
You're kidding, right? TARP, for one. Many defense contracts accrue more benefits to the rich than the poor. The Home Mortgage Interest Deduction. Medicare Part D.
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Old 10-01-09, 03:35 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Yes, a great many jobs were created with the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.
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Old 10-01-09, 04:10 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

I think the HMID should be done away with immediately.

However, it probably does create a few jobs.

Last edited by classicman2; 10-01-09 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 10-01-09, 04:12 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
When has it flown up?
Foreign aid when it is used primarily to stabilize corporate interests abroad, for one.
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Old 10-01-09, 04:26 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

You can't really believe that no laws are passed to help rich people. Here are a couple of classes of laws that do. Price supports for agricultural products, which often give the most help to giant agribusiness corporations. Tariffs to increase the profits of particular industries, and their owners. These ones are easy to spot, because the higher prices that ordinary people pay at cash registers everywhere go straight into a handful of bank accounts.
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Old 10-01-09, 05:45 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Help me out here, isn't this what the teabagger types are always on about? That the common man is being overtaxed? Doesn't this show that he isn't (this year at least)?
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Old 10-01-09, 05:54 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

So let me ask this a different way because I'm not talking about the few % that are multi-millionaires. Let's say I make $500k a year as a manager for a large company that makes widgets. I pay $200k a year (or whatever it would be) in federal income tax. What is flowing up to me? The person down the street doesn't work and he pays no federal tax but instead actually gets money on a return due to this or that social program. Things are obviously flowing down nicely to him. How is this not pure income redistribution? I am paying for him, I am paying for his home, I am paying for his food, I am paying for his health care, and I'm giving him some extra spending cash. What am I getting? (And don't tell me I'm getting the money I make for working. I'm talking about what benefits from the Gov't are flowing up my way?).

I fully admit when it comes how this is all broken up is a bit of a mystery to me so if this is all a crazy example I apologize so please don't parse the details. I'm just trying to convey the question the best I can.
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Old 10-01-09, 06:04 PM
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Re: 47% will pay no federal income tax

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
So let me ask this a different way because I'm not talking about the few % that are multi-millionaires. Let's say I make $500k a year as a manager for a large company that makes widgets. I pay $200k a year (or whatever it would be) in federal income tax. What is flowing up to me? The person down the street doesn't work and he pays no federal tax but instead actually gets money on a return due to this or that social program. Things are obviously flowing down nicely to him. How is this not pure income redistribution? I am paying for him, I am paying for his home, I am paying for his food, I am paying for his health care, and I'm giving him some extra spending cash. What am I getting? (And don't tell me I'm getting the money I make for working. I'm talking about what benefits from the Gov't are flowing up my way?).

I fully admit when it comes how this is all broken up is a bit of a mystery to me so if this is all a crazy example I apologize so please don't parse the details. I'm just trying to convey the question the best I can.
In that hypothetical scenario, as one example... there are bills lobbied for by your company that benefit the company and allow you to earn more than you would've been able to had that bill not been passed. Without that import tariff you might not have even had a job.

There are probably some more direct examples that others will provide.
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