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Health care pt 4

Old 09-11-09, 06:39 AM
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Health care pt 4

Continued from here http://forum.dvdtalk.com/politics-wo...-part-3-a.html
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Old 09-11-09, 09:26 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

To summarize:
-Health care bad.
-Obama's a liar.
-The Democrats said it/did it first.
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Old 09-11-09, 09:47 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Actually I think it's more

- Health care reform is needed but "public option" is bad
- All politicians are liars
- Neither side holds the moral high ground anymore
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Old 09-11-09, 11:32 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Oh this thread should go swimmingly. You've spun off the meaty part of the discussion into its own thread.
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Old 09-11-09, 12:14 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

I was wondering which thread would get more traffic... not surprised at the answer so far


To add a little to this discussion though, it seems Obama did get a poll bump from the speech... this is the only source I've been able to find yet though so I'm not sure what other polls have to say.


http://www.time.com/time/politics/ar...rss-topstories
Obama's Health-Care Challenge: Keeping the Focus on the Larger Goals
By Karen Tumulty / Washington Thursday, Sep. 10, 2009

The early returns look good. On the morning after Barack Obama's dramatic bid to push the most ambitious undertaking of his presidency toward a goal line that is in sight and yet still out of reach, the instant polls suggested he had indeed made some headway.<b> In a national survey by CNN, 2 out of 3 of those watching said they might favor his health-care proposal, which was a 14-point jump from before the President gave the address on Sept. 9 to a packed House chamber. </b>But as Bill Clinton — or his wife, the Secretary of State, who was sitting in the front row — could tell Obama, it's best not to get too euphoric at the way a speech can make the numbers jump. After all, Clinton got virtually the identical result the day after he gave a similar speech on his own health-care plan in that same spot 16 years ago. It turned out to be the high-water mark for an initiative that spent the next year in a drawn-out death spiral and that proved to be a failure that helped cost the Democrats control of Congress in the 1994 elections.

Obama White House officials know that too. So while they are sounding confident at this stage that the President will have some kind of health-care bill by the end of the year, they are watching carefully to see if there are more signs that they have arrested what they acknowledge has been a slide in public support. What concerns them, they say, is not what happened in August — the near riots at congressional town halls or the lies about "death panels." Instead, it is a quieter and growing public unease that they began seeing in their own polls and in public ones starting early in the summer. (Read "Halperin's Take: What Obama Achieved – and What He Didn't.")

In an interview with TIME in late July, Obama acknowledged that problem with surprising candor. "This has been the most difficult test for me so far in public life," he said. "When I see polls saying that it's 50-50 and people are still worried about whether this is going to somehow increase their costs when every bill that's out there would lower them, or that this is going to mean that they lose their doctors, or their health care is rationed, or, you know, all the other things that they're worried about, it leads me to spend a lot of time thinking about how can I describe this in clearer terms so that we can get the health care that the American people deserve."

In part, his advisers have since concluded, the difficulty stems from the natural give-and-take of the legislative process and how it plays out in the media. The larger goals, they say, get lost in the politics and the arguments over individual aspects of the bills. What Obama and his strategists concluded — paradoxically — was that the spotlight of a presidential address could take the public's attention off the politicians (including a President whose approval ratings have been edging down) and put it back on the larger goals that Obama is trying to achieve. As a senior White House official explained a few hours before the speech, "When you ask people, 'Do you support the President's health-care plan?' you get something from [even] to slightly negative. When you describe what the President is proposing, you get solid support by a margin of 20 points or more." (Read "Can Pelosi Win Over Wary Dems on Health Care?")

Another goal of the speech, officials say, was to install a circuit breaker — not only to the mythology and false claims about the legislation but also to the wars that have been waged between the left and the right over actual provisions. Chief among them: the "public option," a government-run alternative like Medicare to cover the uninsured. "What's happened is that has become sort of a Rorschach test for the left and the right," the White House official said. "There are those on the left who believe this would be the nose under the tent for single-payer. There are those on the right who suspect that this could be the nose under the tent for single-payer. The left and the right love to do that kind of minuet. I don't want to denigrate those views so much as to say that it is an unproductive sideshow to the major debate here."

So even as Obama expressed his support for the public option, he downplayed its significance, calling it "only a means to [the] end'' and noting that just 5% of Americans were likely to sign up. (Indeed, one factor often overlooked in all the shouting is that under most of the versions of the bill that have been proposed, as well as Obama's own, the majority of Americans who get health coverage through their employer would not be eligible to buy into a public option, or any of the private ones that would be offered under the newly established state marketplaces; some critics on the left say that would actually lessen its potential cost-saving impact.) Obama said more explicitly than he has before that he is open to watering down the public option. "Some have suggested that the public option go into effect only in those markets where insurance companies are not providing affordable policies. Others have proposed a co-op or another nonprofit entity to administer the plan," he said. "These are all constructive ideas worth exploring."

The challenge for Obama going forward, however, will be twofold — and in some ways contradictory. While he will have to immerse himself even more in the details and in the legislative back-and-forth in the weeks to come, he will also have to rededicate himself to making the larger case that will reassure the public that the whole exercise is worth it. How well he achieves that balancing act may determine the shape of the bill that finally reaches his desk — or whether he gets one at all.

Last edited by nemein; 09-11-09 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 09-11-09, 12:44 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

That CNN poll has been slammed for a heavy sampling of Democrats. I think the numbers were 45% Democrats and 18% Republicans.

CBS has a poll showing a 12% bump (up to 52%) but that's mostly amongst Democrats.

Poll: Obama's Speech Buoyed Public Support

President Obama attempt to explain his plans for health care reform to the American public Wednesday night appear to have been successful — to some extent.

A CBS News poll shows that Americans now give him the best marks of his presidency on handling health care, but they're still divided over whether he's clearly explained his plan. And only 22 percent of those asked said the reforms now being considered would help them personally.

The day after Mr. Obama's congressional address, CBS re-interviewed 678 adults first questioned in a poll conducted August 27-31.

Last week, just 40 percent of these adults approved of how the president was handling health care. More, 47 percent, disapproved. After the speech, 52 percent said they approved and only 38 percent said they disapproved. Those are the best assessments for Mr. Obama's handling of health care shown all year by CBS News Polls.

President Obama's speech was particularly successful in unifying Democrats. Now, 85 percent of them approve of his handling of health care.

Approval rates also rose among independents and Republicans, but independents are still divided and only 17 percent of Republicans approve of the president's health care actions.

However, a majority of all adults still aren't sure he has met one important goal; clarifying what reforms would mean — although there has been major improvement. Before the speech, just 33 percent said Mr. Obama had clearly explained his plans for reform. That rose to 42 percent afterward, but 43 percent still said he had not clearly explained his plans.

All of the improvement on this question came from those who watched the speech. A majority of those who watched the speech, 58 percent, said the president had explained his plans, up from 40 percent before the speech. But among those who didn't watch, only one in four now say he has explained his plans — the same percentage as before the speech.

Still, most Americans remain skeptical about how reforms currently under consideration in Congress would affect them personally. Just 22 percent of Americans think the reforms under consideration in Congress would help them personally. Twenty-seven percent think the new plans would hurt them. Those numbers have hardly changed at all since last week.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09...y5302288.shtml
Rasmussen has health care getting a bump up to 46%, again coming mostly from Democrats.

Following Speech, Support for Health Care Reform Up to 46%

President Obama’s speech to Congress Wednesday night has provided at least a short-term boost in support for the health care reform plan that he and congressional Democrats have proposed. But the bounce is partisan in nature, with the increase in support coming entirely from those in the president’s own party.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national tracking survey shows that 46% favor the plan and 51% are opposed. The survey was conducted on Wednesday and Thursday nights. The previous two-day sample, conducted Tuesday and Wednesday nights, found that 44% favored the plan while 53% were opposed.

The Thursday night portion of the current survey is the first based entirely upon interviews conducted following the president’s speech to Congress. That data finds that the number who support and oppose the legislation are essentially even. Rasmussen Reports will be tracking support for the proposals on a daily basis over the next several days and will release new updates each morning at 9 EDT.

Another measure of the speech's impact will be found in the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll. Early indications are that Obama also received a modest personal bounce in his approval ratings.

Eighty percent (80%) of Democrats now support the health care plan, up from 72% in the previous survey results. Support among Republicans declined two points while support among those not affiliated with either major party rose by a single percentage point. Premium Members can see full demographic crosstabs for results released today, yesterday and, for comparison, in late August.

The speech also increased enthusiasm for the plan. Thirty percent (30%) now Strongly Favor the legislation and 39% are Strongly Opposed. In the previous survey, 27% Strongly Favored the plan and 41% Strongly Opposed. In August, those numbers were 23% and 43% respectively.

From a different perspective, 51% now say that health care reform is at least somewhat likely to pass this year. That’s up from 47%.

If the plan passes, 31% of voters say the quality of care will get better and 46% say it will get worse. In August, the numbers were 23% better and 50% worse.

Forty-seven percent (47%) say passage of the plan will make the cost of health care go up while 23% say it will make costs go down. The previous survey found 52% thought the plan would lead to higher costs, and only 17% thought it would achieve the stated goal of lowering costs.

Other recent polling prior to the president's speech shows that most people with insurance say it’s likely they would be forced to change coverage if the plan passes. Voters overwhelmingly believe that every American should be able to buy the same health insurance plan that Congress has. Most favor limits on jury awards for medical malpractice claims and think that tort reform will significantly reduce the cost of health care.

Nationally televised appearances by the president have typically provided a bounce in the polls that last for a week or two. In all cases but one, the bounce has been positive for the president. Following a nationally televised press conference in August, he received a negative bounce when he commented on an incident involving a black Harvard professor and a white Cambridge policeman. Still, even following that press conference which was intended to promote the health care plan, the president’s appearance temporarily improved support for the reform legislation.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...eform_up_to_46

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Old 09-11-09, 01:43 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Now if only what The Obama said in the speach resembled what are in the plans.

YOU LIE!
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Old 09-11-09, 01:46 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Now if only what The Obama said in the speach resembled what are in the plans.
Why are you so anti-hope?
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Old 09-11-09, 01:58 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Being filled with hope and being filled with bullshit seem to be the same today. Most everything Obama said was bullshit, and he has said the opposite many times. He clearly sees this as the best way to get to his real agenda of a single payer system where he gets to kill old people.
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Old 09-11-09, 06:20 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Speaking of hope. Last week, we were discussing the failure of the WH to show real leadership on this issue, the Dems to put forth a clear message, and the Media to cover the issue and not the political game. I think literally the next day Obama announced his plan to address congress. That must have given some hope on these issue for proponents of HC reform, so how do you think it went in that regard?

I've read several articles evaluating the speech ranging from TNR's calling it (yet again) his best speech to date, the WaPo saying it was a good speech full of new details, RCP saying it was his best delivery yet of his mostly old talking points, and various conservatives picking it apart.

To me, it seems Obama stepped up a little bit, but it was mostly just redoubling of his cheerleading efforts. He still seemed in campaign mode, pushing back against opponents instead of pushing forward. Normally when you have a President tell Congress (quite literally in this case) "I won't sign a bill that adds one dime to the deficit" it's taken as a veto threat to Congress, but here it was just another dubious talking point to pitch the viewers at home whatever bill the dems in congress have/will brew up.

As for a clear message. On the one hand the speech added a couple of new ideas to the regular pitch, but overall it was the same basic outline with the same caveat we've heard for 6 months: "There are still a lot of details to work out." When the President is still shaky on "his plan" even having a public option, then there is obviously a lot more work needed before he tries to pitch it to the public.

And finally the media. Well, the Wilson coverage should answer that. Our discussion last week also touched not just on the role/responsibility of the media but also the Dem's "using the media they have" to get their message out. Reading the reports today of Dems grandstanding on the Wilson outburst, threatening censure, etc., I have to say they have not learned their lesson. The lure of cheap political points was too much for some to keep them from distracting from the message.
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Old 09-11-09, 07:21 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Read this article today:

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/co...-58823022.html

Democrats stifle Republican health care plans

Rep. Tom Price, the Georgia Republican who heads the House GOP Study Committee, came to President Obama's speech Wednesday night itching to make a point. Price, who also happens to be an orthopedic surgeon, has often heard the president accuse Republicans of criticizing Democratic health care proposals while having no plans of their own. He expected Obama to do the same Wednesday night.

"We knew the president would at some point say something like, 'and the other side has no ideas,' " Price says. So Price and his Republican colleagues brought with them copies of the more than 30 health care reform bills they have proposed in the House this year.

Obama didn't directly accuse Republicans of not having a plan. But he did say he would welcome "serious" health care proposals. "My door is always open," Obama said.

That's when Price held up the sheaf of papers he was carrying -- a copy of H.R. 3400, the Empowering Patients First Act, which Price and the Republican Study Committee proposed in July. Other GOP lawmakers held up their own bills. Some raised a list of all the health care bills -- there are more than 30 -- proposed by members of the Study Committee.

Why use the props? "To say in a quiet and respectful way, 'Here are our ideas,' " Price says. "To say to the president, 'You're not being honest with the American people when you say that there haven't been ideas put forward, and that you've listened to them, because you haven't.' "

The small Republican protest got a bit of coverage, although it was overshadowed by the hubbub over GOP Rep. Joe Wilson's "You lie!" outburst during the president's speech. But the larger problem remains. Republicans have authored a number of health care bills -- serious legislation addressing portability, pre-existing conditions, cost and other issues that most trouble American consumers -- and hardly anyone has noticed.

Republicans don't really blame Nancy Pelosi. The speaker is as partisan a Democrat as they come, and no one is surprised that she has used her power to stifle Republican efforts. But they do blame the Obama administration. "The White House, in spite of saying they look forward to meeting with anybody who wants to solve these challenges, has rebuffed us at every turn," Price says.

They also blame the media. Somewhere in this extended health care debate, Republicans believe, reporters might have noticed that there are real, substantive GOP proposals out there. So far, though, it hasn't happened.

A search of the LexisNexis database of newspapers, magazines, television programs and major blogs finds about 3,000 mentions of the major House Democratic bill, H.R. 3200, in the past six months. (Those are just the stories that refer to the bill by its House number; there have been thousands more stories referring generally to the Democratic legislation.) A similar search found 60 mentions of H.R. 3400, the Price bill.

Another Republican bill, H.R. 2520, the Patients' Choice Act, by Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, received 12 mentions in the same time period. And two other bills, H.R. 3217 and H.R. 3218, the Health Care Choice Act and the Improving Health Care for All Americans Act, by Rep. John Shadegg, together received 20 mentions.


The virtual embargo on reporting Republican legislation has allowed Democrats and their allies in the media to keep up the "Republicans have no plan" attack. Just hours after the president's speech, for example, the Democratic National Committee released a new commercial claiming that Republicans "refuse to offer a plan" to reform the health care system.

Just for the record, in case you want to check them out, these are the bills proposed, so far, by Price and his allies in the House: H.R. 77; H.R. 109; H.R. 198; H.R. 270; H.R. 321; H.R. 464; H.R. 502; H.R. 544; H.R. 917; H.R. 1086; H.R. 1118; H.R. 1441; H.R. 1458; H.R. 1468; H.R. 1658; H.R. 1891; H.R. 2520; H.R. 2607; H.R. 2692; H.R. 2784; H.R. 2785; H.R. 2786; H.R. 2787; H.R. 3141; H.R. 3217; H.R. 3218; H.R. 3356; H.R. 3372; H.R. 3400; H.R. 3438; H.R. 3454; and H.R. 3478.

"It's frustrating," Price says. But Republicans believe that in the end, the public won't buy the administration's line. "The American people are smarter than that," Price says. "They know there are alternatives out there. That's what August was all about."
Hadn't heard about any of these bills before. Anyone here read up on them or seen any references to them?
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Old 09-11-09, 07:31 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
Why are you so anti-hope?

I think he is just anti-liars.......
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Old 09-12-09, 11:13 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Interestingly and sort of off topic I guess....but time at my company to pick/repick benefits for my company.

I'm actually thinking of dropping some coverage. I have a separate vision plan and thinking of dropping it. They are very specific as to what Dr's I go to and after co-pay still expensive. So I've been going to the vision care in WalMart. Not only are the exams a little less than the co-pay for going to an authorized Dr., the contacts are so much cheaper. Yea, my insurance covers X number of contact or glasses per year, but a year supply at Walmart is so cheap, I just don't see it worth it.

Of course there are other things the Vision care covers. But when wife had some eye issues, it was actually covered under our normal health because it had nothing specific to do with general eye site.
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Old 09-12-09, 11:26 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

I dropped my eye insurance for the same reason a few years back. The number of restrictions on what I could use it on didn't let me actually shop around. I was able to get my frames/glasses cheaper paying out of pocket than going to the places they authorized with the insurance.
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Old 09-14-09, 06:55 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Obamacare would limit treatment for people losing their eyesight.


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09257/997805-110.stm

Limited care

September 14, 2009

By JENNIFER OLBUM, DO

Lucentis injections have transformed the lives of the elderly who are unfortunate enough to have (wet) macular degeneration. We (ophthalmologists) have enthusiastically been able to help our patients maintain their independence as well as their dignity with this relatively new drug.

It is important to note that even now, according to my Genentec reps, the "Orwellian body" Mr. Krauthammer speaks of in Britain still limits these treatments to seven treatments per year per eye. In many cases this falls far short of the often-needed monthly injections in order to save and improve vision. In fact, seven per year may result in simply slowing the inevitable, allowing these frightened people to watch as their visions fades.

Mr. Obama's health-care plan limits these treatments to 14 per eye per lifetime if I read HR 3200 correctly (not an easy task). Again, this is often short of what is needed to maintain or improve vision.

I wonder if anyone in Congress would opt for this plan if they have a family history of this disease or suffer from macular degeneration themselves? Can anyone name a reasonable price for loss of vision?

Last edited by grundle; 09-14-09 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 09-14-09, 09:03 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Here's analysis of the latest ABC/WaPo poll from George Stephanopoulos:

Obama Speech No Game-Changer

Our new ABC News/Washington Post poll out this morning shows that the President’s joint session speech may have stopped his summer slide, but it doesn’t appear to have been the “game-changer” Democrats were hoping for.

No doubt Obama’s passionate presentation energized his partisans and began to unify Congressional Democrats, but this poll is the best evidence yet of where the public stands – and it demonstrates how difficult it will be for Obama to shape the debate and overcome skepticism about his plan.

Bottom line: right now, voters are almost exactly where they were before the speech.

Big question: will praise of Obama's speech from moderate Dems (Ben Nelson called it a "game-changer" and President's meeting with 17 Blue Dogs had a positive vibe) begin to impact public, or will more poll results like this shake the confidence of the Congressional centrists Obama needs?

Big question II: is dropping the public option the game-changer? Olympia Snowe says it’s the only way to get a bill through the Senate, and our poll shows a significant shift in support: from 46-48 to 50-42.

Here are the key numbers:

Split on Obama's handling of health care: 48-48 (46-50 August 17)
Support Obama's health care reforms: 46-48 (45-50 August 17)
President Obama's job approval is at 54 (57 August 17)
Deficit: 65% think health care reform will make it worse
Medicare: 56% of seniors think it will weaken Medicare

On the crucial "what's in it for me?" question, twice as many Americans (32-16) think it will make their own care worse, twice as many (40-20) think it will increase their costs, and more than three times as many (37-11) think it will hurt their coverage.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009...e-changer.html
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Old 09-14-09, 09:20 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Do you all remember a few short years ago when the Repubs were complaining about all the waste and fraud in Medicare & Medicaid? The Democrats, rightly so, said there wasn't the huge amount of waste in fraud in the 2 programs that the Repubs were complaining about. Now - the Democrats are singing a different tune - at least $300 billion in waste & fraud. I wonder what brought about his abrupt chage?
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Old 09-14-09, 11:48 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Now - the Democrats are singing a different tune - at least $300 billion in waste & fraud. I wonder what brought about his abrupt chage?
That can only be rooted out after a nationalized health care bill is passed.

If the waste and fraud is there, go after it now.
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Old 09-14-09, 11:51 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Interestingly and sort of off topic I guess....but time at my company to pick/repick benefits for my company.

I'm actually thinking of dropping some coverage. I have a separate vision plan and thinking of dropping it. They are very specific as to what Dr's I go to and after co-pay still expensive. So I've been going to the vision care in WalMart. Not only are the exams a little less than the co-pay for going to an authorized Dr., the contacts are so much cheaper. Yea, my insurance covers X number of contact or glasses per year, but a year supply at Walmart is so cheap, I just don't see it worth it.

Of course there are other things the Vision care covers. But when wife had some eye issues, it was actually covered under our normal health because it had nothing specific to do with general eye site.

Time for change on my wife's plan as well. We have never taken the vision option because of what you said. And when I had serious eye problems and ended up with a cataract which required surgery to replace the lens, it was covered by medical insurance.
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Old 09-14-09, 11:59 AM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by X View Post
That can only be rooted out after a nationalized health care bill is passed.

If the waste and fraud is there, go after it now.
I agree, but first let's tackle where the real fraud and waste is - defense.
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Old 09-14-09, 12:07 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I agree, but first let's tackle where the real fraud and waste is - defense.
Now come on...

You know that YF-22 Raptor is the best AS fighter in the skies. Unless it rains, or there is dust or sand in the air that is. But besides those small issues the billions and billions put into that program is money well spent.
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Old 09-14-09, 12:16 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I agree, but first let's tackle where the real fraud and waste is - defense.
It seems like a good time to go after both.

People are doing this in their own lives now, they would love it if the government showed it was making a similar effort. You'd think those geniuses who advise Obama would think of that, especially since they're not known as being especially pro-military spending.
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Old 09-14-09, 12:51 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Originally Posted by X View Post
It seems like a good time to go after both.


I'm not sure how people can look at the current budget and disagree. Instead we are trying to figure out new ways to... spend money?

I'm not sure it was ever NOT a good time to be going after both. But government is never too eager to cut down on waste. They need Obama to say "Okay, let's cut a hundred million" as if it's just assumed that there is 100 million in waste to cut. Which there obviously is.

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Old 09-14-09, 01:09 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

Remember how the Cabinet members were going to cut like $14 per year out of each of their budgets and report on how they were going to do it? I heard that they missed the original date their reports were supposed to be presented. I haven't heard anything since though. Where are their reports on how they're going to save all that money?
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Old 09-14-09, 01:20 PM
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Re: Health care pt 4

They missed their deadline but I believe the proposals came end of July. They overachieved, cutting more than 200 million over two years.

The liberal media covered this up, instead focusing on the great spending going on.

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 09-14-09 at 01:23 PM.
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