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If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Old 08-29-09, 09:58 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by nemein View Post
There are differences between public services and socialism.
What are those differences?
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Old 08-29-09, 10:01 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

a public links course is socialism?
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Old 08-29-09, 10:08 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
a public links course is socialism?
How is it any less socialism than a public health care option?
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Old 08-29-09, 10:29 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So if a person takes these people at their word, they are blind? Help me out here. Obama favors a single payer system, Barney Frank favors it. Ted Kennedy did. Others are on record supporting it, and yet you think people are blind if they believe the federal government has any interest in being the sole provider of health care in this country?

Seriously, who is being blind here? That is exactly what they say they want.
It won't happen. I favor a single payer system, I have my reasons. The government as a whole will not let it happen, that has become apparent. The plan in discussion does not include that option. Speculating that a public option will crush all private insurance is not the same as abolishing private insurance. My comments may have been poorly constructed. The loudest voices in the conservative movement would have you think that we're 6 weeks from becoming North Korea. The Democrats have been badgered down quite a few steps from their initial position on health care, and I think that is regrettable. The fact that the Executive branch is now waffling on the public option being included at all is a very sad thing. We'll continue to have millions uninsured and costing us money anyway in public services. I am all for raising taxes to pay for the availability of health care for all citizens, and yes, I do think that those with a greater ability to pay should pay marginally more. Private health care continues to get worse in terms of costs and benefits, as well as their willingness to provide care, this needs to be fixed, and what I've heard of the President's plan seems to be a good start in correcting the problem.
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Old 08-29-09, 10:55 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
How is it any less socialism than a public health care option?
The public golf courses I play at charge green fees well above nominal levels and the courses are used to generate revenue for the park system.
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Old 08-29-09, 11:27 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
The public golf courses I play at charge green fees well above nominal levels and the courses are used to generate revenue for the park system.
But it's owned and operated by the government.
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Old 08-29-09, 11:28 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by nemein View Post
There are differences between public services and socialism. If the public option was really meant to be an alternative that was designed to compete on a level playing ground would be one thing. Frankly though it seems to be designed to slowly under mind the private insurance industry forcing more and more people to "choose" the public plan under it effectively becomes the only health care available. I agree there needs to be reform in health care, I don't think jumping right to the public option is the best/first approach though.
well, we certainly wouldn't want to "under mind" (that made me smile) private insurance by actually having some sort of competition. and how do you know this will "force" people to choose the public option. aren't people right now "forced" to choose only what the insurance companies are offering, that is if you want health care?
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Old 08-29-09, 11:31 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
But it's owned and operated by the government.
So is the military. Is the military socialism?
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Old 08-29-09, 11:44 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
So is the military. Is the military socialism?
The military isn't a commercial enterprise. But this raises some interesting questions, especially about the government's involvement in 'private goods' vs. 'public goods', and the psychology of people who are fine with the government being involved in things that benefit them, but not being OK when the government wants to be involved in things that will mostly benefit others.
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Old 08-29-09, 12:00 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

I think it might have something to do with the level of government, too.

I'll play golf at a county or municipal golf course. If the federal government started buying up private country clubs and opening them up to everybody, I'd benefit because I'd have greater access to different courses. That doesn't mean I'd be fine with it.
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Old 08-29-09, 12:15 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by zombeaner View Post
It was a very stupid thing to say, though I agree that she was probably just clueless. The Great White Hope really has no other meaning, though, apart from a white person who can take down a person of color in a position of authority. Did she know that? Probably not.
Yeah, it was a dumb thing to say, especially in this climate where everything is scrutinized and overanalyzed. Reminds me of when the National (a band I really like) stumped for Obama during the election. They dedicated their song "Mr. November" to him and even made it into a shirt to raise funds for the campaign.

The last lines of the song:

I'm the new blue blood, I'm the great white hope
I'm the new blue blood
I won't fuck us over, I'm Mr. November
I'm Mr. November, I won't fuck us over


I thought that was kind of funny then. And, IMO, he is fucking us over.

Last edited by DJLinus; 08-29-09 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 08-29-09, 12:26 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

I consider public schools to be socialist.
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Old 08-29-09, 12:46 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I'd settle for the top 2% of whitey.
Your use of the phrase "of whitey" is largely redundant.
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Old 08-29-09, 05:17 PM
  #64  
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
What are those differences?
Public services are something provided (generally by a Gov't [and regardless of the form of Gov't] but not necessarily[1]) for the general public use. Socialism is an economic theory of non-private control over pretty much everything that makes a society function.


[1] For example CSPAN is a public service provided by the cable industry that takes no Gov't funds.

Last edited by nemein; 08-29-09 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 08-29-09, 05:23 PM
  #65  
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
So is the military. Is the military socialism?
As Hackman said in Crimson Tide (first place I could find the quote, I know I've heard it other places before though) "We're here to defend democracy, not practice it". One the great ironies in life if you ask me. If anything some of the problems in Iraq show what happens when you try to privatize an army/military action.
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Old 08-29-09, 05:31 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
well, we certainly wouldn't want to "under mind" (that made me smile) private insurance by actually having some sort of competition. and how do you know this will "force" people to choose the public option. aren't people right now "forced" to choose only what the insurance companies are offering, that is if you want health care?
I think there's a lot that can be done to increase competition between existing insurance/health providers before we get to the point of a public option. If you look at the way the program seems to be designed it is meant to get more and more people to "choose" it at some point in their life. I wonder how easy it is going to be to get off of it once you're on it? Again if it was fairly priced that would be one thing, but from what I've heard it is purposefully going to be set at a lower premium (never mind the taxes propping it up and helping them to offer that "lower" price) to ensure "competition". Frankly IMHO it's going to become another bloated political program that'll be another football people will play around w/ during election time... we have enough of those already. That doesn't even get into what this is going to cost and the financial situation of the US, not to mention what happens when you effectively shutdown an entire sector of the economy.

Last edited by nemein; 08-31-09 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 08-30-09, 12:29 AM
  #67  
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
well, we certainly wouldn't want to "under mind" (that made me smile) private insurance by actually having some sort of competition. and how do you know this will "force" people to choose the public option. aren't people right now "forced" to choose only what the insurance companies are offering, that is if you want health care?
Simply allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines would open up a lot of competition. Private insurance also has competition from other private insurance.

But it isn't open market competition when you offer a service, I offer "competition" where I dictate the rules you have to live by, I don't have to make a profit to keep running, and can print my own money if I need to. And everyone buying your product or service is also taxed to supplement the cost of mine.

It does set up a nice system where I can proclaim my service to be vastly superior to yours, though, since yours won't last in that type of system.
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Old 08-31-09, 07:38 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

I may be called a racist for voting for McCain, but what does that make the voters who voted for Obama simply because he was black?
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Old 08-31-09, 07:42 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Dean Kousoulas View Post
I may be called a racist for voting for McCain, but what does that make the voters who voted for Obama simply because he was black?
Courageous.
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Old 08-31-09, 07:55 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Simply allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines would open up a lot of competition. Private insurance also has competition from other private insurance.
Not much competition. And no it wouldn't.

But it isn't open market competition when you offer a service, I offer "competition" where I dictate the rules you have to live by, I don't have to make a profit to keep running, and can print my own money if I need to. And everyone buying your product or service is also taxed to supplement the cost of mine.

It does set up a nice system where I can proclaim my service to be vastly superior to yours, though, since yours won't last in that type of system.
Then how come there are still private insurance companies in countries that offer a public option?
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Old 08-31-09, 10:31 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Not much competition. And no it wouldn't.
I disagree. The other problem is the minimum standards required by states for insurance companies.


Then how come there are still private insurance companies in countries that offer a public option?
Because they didn't pass the House version of Health Care.
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Old 08-31-09, 11:58 PM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I disagree. The other problem is the minimum standards required by states for insurance companies.
That wouldn't help anyone who can't get health insurance.

Because they didn't pass the House version of Health Care.
There's really that much of a difference?
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Old 09-01-09, 01:03 AM
  #73  
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by Dean Kousoulas View Post
I may be called a racist for voting for McCain, but what does that make the voters who voted for Obama simply because he was black?
Well, did you vote for McCain because he was white? It sure seems like you're saying you did. If someone voted for Obama because think he is black, then they are the same thing. (Even though he's not black. He's HALF black. He's also half white.) But it's kind of silly argument to suggest that Obama got voted in because he was black. If anything, the odds were stacked against him because he's not 100% white. People like you for example.
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Old 09-01-09, 01:19 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Simply allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines would open up a lot of competition. Private insurance also has competition from other private insurance.

But it isn't open market competition when you offer a service, I offer "competition" where I dictate the rules you have to live by, I don't have to make a profit to keep running, and can print my own money if I need to. And everyone buying your product or service is also taxed to supplement the cost of mine.

It does set up a nice system where I can proclaim my service to be vastly superior to yours, though, since yours won't last in that type of system.
Nice thought. However, if you do that, all that will happen is that the big insurance companies will buy out or kill off the smaller insurance companies by simply lowering their prices. Which sounds like a good thing. BUT, insurance companies are out to make profit. So if they take in less, guess what they do next? They pay out less. Eventually, when most of the smaller companies disappear, they no longer have competition, and getting into the health insurance business has an EXTREMELY high barrier. So, then the companies are free to raise their rates to whatever they like. And when they've trained the hospitals, doctors, and patients to accept lower payouts, they can raise their rates without paying out more. Voila. CHA-CHING!!!

The healthcare system as currently setup in the U.S. is extremely flawed simply for the reason that it healthcare companies are allowed to profit. The reason this is flawed is because healthcare insurance doesn't work like any other type of insurance. With other kinds of insurance, you generally get coverage for the big stuff. Healthcare insurance is expected to cover everything from routine checkups to cancer care. Thus, hospitals and doctors essentially get paid by the healthcare insurance companies. Hardly any money comes directly from the patients.

This is a BIG problem then because then doctors no longer feel pressure to know the real price of anything they do. There's not really any guilt in charging since the doctors don't direct the prices and or send out the bills themselves. And instead focus on covering their asses by running a lot of unnecessary tests that make the patient feel better. Make them feel like they're getting primo healthcare because hey, they're being "tested". My parents are prime examples of this. And so when the tests fail, as they often do, patients sue because they expected perfection in their healthcare. Hospitals also then send out a deluge of bills to the healthcare insurance companies.

The healthcare insurance companies then start denying claims left and right hoping someone won't notice or that if they frustrate people long enough, either the hospital will just write off the charge or the patient will panic enough about their credit and just pay it off.

The system is seriously fucked up, and people are naive to think the healthcare system is fine just the way it is and it should be left alone. If some kind of healthcare reform doesn't happen, wait and see healthcare collapse. Considering it's a $1.6 trillion/year industry, the financial industry's crisis in the past year is going to look like chump change.
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Old 09-01-09, 07:54 AM
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Re: If you disagree with Obama - you are racist.

Healthcare insurance is expected to cover everything from routine checkups to cancer care.
I agree that this is a big problem. When someone else foots the bill, the beneficiary won't bother to shop around. That's why if government is going to get involved, I'd prefer a Singapore type system.
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