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Health care reform discussion continues...

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Health care reform discussion continues...

Old 07-21-09, 03:00 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
If our problem is entitlements, why is the solution more entitlements?
You obviously aren't up to date on spending your way out of debt. Get with the program.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:01 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
You obviously aren't up to date on spending your way out of debt. Get with the program.
It sounds like the Martingale gambling system.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:02 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Almost all of the problems we have in the healthcare field are a result of government protections and 'regulations' that are designed to let insurance avoid payments and limit consumer and doctor responses.

The proposed solution is now to expand the government's role. This from the same people who decry the influential lobbyists and powerful interests of the rich. Which government will be producing and running this program? Is it some different one than the one I know headquarted in DC?

These massive expansions into healthcare will result in two things; new ways for corporations to leech of the government teat and reduced freedom and services to taxpayers.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:09 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

The biggest problem, as was stated, was health care costs.

You run yourself in circles of logic, ignoring larger context. We can't stay with what we have, that is entitlements to billionaires and their millionaire executives. I guess you think by you not acknowledging that it makes it not true, or maybe 'giving away the nation to rich people isn't entitlements, that's only for poor people that makes it entitlements'?

It's hilarious to see people who are either simply unable to understand that, or think themselves clever by not doing so. "So tell me how more entitlements restrains spending", that sounds clever unless you know what you are talking about.

France covers everyone for under 1/6th the costs of the US. Medicare isn't the problem. It's the corrupt health care system and the health care costs. You can try to dodge the simple truth of that, it won't change the fact.

You never seem to bother posting an alternative to your almost exclusively hypothetical or generalized ideological take on this. How do think we stay with this current corrupt system? Spell it out with at least a couple of details. Don't cop out with "I'm more afraid of dogs than cats".

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a special privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom." - Benjamin Rush, MD., signer of the Declaration of Independence, and personal physician to George Washington, fist surgeon general of the United States

This is yet another thing the founders warned us about. This where we're at. Poor people die every day from things that are nothing for someone in my financial situation.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:10 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
So if I was some dude without insurance, let's skip over the reasons for now, and I had stomach pain and was told to get a CT scan and an MRI, would that be "catastrophic?" How many tests and specialist would have to be paid before it reached that point? Remember, this is just DIAGNOSIS.
The hospital provides you with both the CT and the MRI, you see a doctor and receive the treatment you need. They'll send you a bill. You probably won't pay it, if you choose to call them they might negotiate a payment schedule or reduced balance. Depending on state law it might be picked up by a state agency for uninsured reimbursement, otherwise it probably gets sent to collections, it might eventually get settled for whatever % is finally agreed upon.

Why is this somehow fundamentally different than the many thousands of dollars the average American has in credit card debt?
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Old 07-21-09, 03:14 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
It sounds like the Martingale gambling system.
That's actually not a terrible analogy, although it seems like we are doubling down on something with less than an even return.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:19 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
The biggest problem, as was stated, was health care costs.

You run yourself in circles of logic, ignoring larger context. We can't stay with what we have, that is entitlements to billionaires and their millionaire executives. I guess you think by you not acknowledging that it makes it not true, or maybe 'giving away the nation to rich people isn't entitlements, that's only for poor people that makes it entitlements'?

It's hilarious to see people who are either simply unable to understand that, or think themselves clever by not doing so. "So tell me how more entitlements restrains spending", that sounds clever unless you know what you are talking about.

France covers everyone for under 1/6th the costs of the US. Medicare isn't the problem. It's the corrupt health care system and the health care costs. You can try to dodge the simple truth of that, it won't change the fact.

You never seem to bother posting an alternative to your almost exclusively hypothetical or generalized ideological take on this. How do think we stay with this current corrupt system? Spell it out with at least a couple of details. Don't cop out with "I'm more afraid of dogs than cats".

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a special privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom." - Benjamin Rush, MD., signer of the Declaration of Independence, and personal physician to George Washington, fist surgeon general of the United States

This is yet another thing the founders warned us about. This where we're at. Poor people die every day from things that are nothing for someone in my financial situation.
Costs are high because we've created a system where the providers of services can't tell the consumers what the actual costs are, and the consumers have no incentive to negotiate or behave in any manner besides consuming the maximum amount.

How's this for a logical circle?

1) The rich are too powerful and control the government
2) The rich are exploiting the medical industry
3) We need more government in the medical industry

How does any of that make sense?

I've worked for several hospitals, I spent several years in highschool as a medical biller in a surgeon's office. I hate insurance companies. They will NEVER pass a 'legitimate' opportunity to deny coverage or reduce payments. They are unscrupulous and have nobody's interests at heart except increasing profit.

They are also protected at every step of the way by state and federal laws and regulations. They will simply use the current legislation to create a new system to exploit.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:26 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
The biggest problem, as was stated, was health care costs.

You run yourself in circles of logic, ignoring larger context. We can't stay with what we have, that is entitlements to billionaires and their millionaire executives. I guess you think by you not acknowledging that it makes it not true, or maybe 'giving away the nation to rich people isn't entitlements, that's only for poor people that makes it entitlements'?

It's hilarious to see people who are either simply unable to understand that, or think themselves clever by not doing so. "So tell me how more entitlements restrains spending", that sounds clever unless you know what you are talking about.

France covers everyone for under 1/6th the costs of the US. Medicare isn't the problem. It's the corrupt health care system and the health care costs. You can try to dodge the simple truth of that, it won't change the fact.

You never seem to bother posting an alternative to your almost exclusively hypothetical or generalized ideological take on this. How do think we stay with this current corrupt system? Spell it out with at least a couple of details. Don't cop out with "I'm more afraid of dogs than cats".

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship to restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others; the Constitution of the Republic should make a special privilege for medical freedoms as well as religious freedom." - Benjamin Rush, MD., signer of the Declaration of Independence, and personal physician to George Washington, fist surgeon general of the United States

This is yet another thing the founders warned us about. This where we're at. Poor people die every day from things that are nothing for someone in my financial situation.
Here is the difference....you think what is proposed is better than nothing, and I think the opposite. I will gladly listen to alternatives, but I won't support something that does more harm than good because "we must do something."

What is being proposed will not decrease anything, including the billionaire's pockets.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:31 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

I wonder what's worse: the "horror" stories that come out of countries with socialized health care, or the real horrifying stories that come out of the US.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:32 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

I'm reminded of those silly billboards

A) Do Nothing
B) FightGlobalWarming.com

First of all, it's not a binary choice, secondly, a 'do nothing' alternative is absolutely rational if the proposed solutions will only succeed in worsening the problem.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:36 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Superboy View Post
I wonder what's worse: the "horror" stories that come out of countries with socialized health care, or the real horrifying stories that come out of the US.
It will depend on what you prefer to believe is true.
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Old 07-21-09, 03:57 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I don't think the goal of liberals is to transfer wealth. I think the goal of liberals is to enact government entitlement programs. By their very nature, entitlement programs are going to require some form of wealth transfer - wealth transfer is a method of achieving the goal.
I could care less about government programs. I see it as compassion for a sprawling and ever-growing population who don't all have the same experience as you or I. Govt programs are just the way to do it on such a large scale.
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Old 07-21-09, 04:00 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
And so it begins.....it will just never be fair enough. It is no longer about the family that goes bankrupt, but now about the guy that needs ANYTHING!

Put a $5,000 or $10,000 deductable. Insurance plans that cover up to that amount should be darn cheap with such a low ceiling. And it isn't so much that you will have all the sob stories about bankruptcy due to medical bills. But I realize that isn't enough for you, now that you are presented with it. There isn't enough "fairness" in that plan that merely solves the problems that we claimed needed to be solved.

I don't think I used the word "fairness." I also don't see the place for that word when it comes to health of our citizens in 21st century America. There is no reason that we all can't have decent healthcare. Fairness implies that I want to pay for the douche who milks the system on purpose. In reality, I want to ensure that people have no cracks to fall into and if that coincidentally pays for the douche, then thats the price to pay. And of us here can find ourselves in one of those cracks.
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Old 07-21-09, 04:01 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

The solution to this problem is obvious.

Extreme Makeover: Kidney Edition.
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Old 07-21-09, 04:16 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Here is the difference....you think what is proposed is better than nothing, and I think the opposite. I will gladly listen to alternatives, but I won't support something that does more harm than good because "we must do something."

What is being proposed will not decrease anything, including the billionaire's pockets.
I was going to post this very thing. Oddly enough I work in the healthcare industry and, reading the Tea leaves, this would all work out extremely well for me.

Still it doesn't take a genius to be able to recognize this thing is basically socialism in a box and the president trying to ram it down our throats so fast that even he doesn't know what it says is just obviously pathetic. Hopefully it'll fail and they'll try to take their time and do it right.. but that doesn't seem to be the way this administration likes to do things. Instead they tend to do what they were supposed to be completely against - Scare Tactics and a complete lack of transparency. Change

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Old 07-21-09, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I see it as compassion for a sprawling and ever-growing population who don't all have the same experience as you or I. Govt programs are just the way to do it on such a large scale.
Tell your giant spaghetti monster to keep his religious followers to themselves and quit forcing his ideas of "compassion" on the rest of us.
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Old 07-21-09, 05:58 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Govt programs are just the way to do it on such a large scale.
And make it mandatory without differentiating those who are on the receiving end (where some might deserve the compassion and others do not).
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Old 07-21-09, 07:17 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Birrman54 View Post
The hospital provides you with both the CT and the MRI, you see a doctor and receive the treatment you need. They'll send you a bill. You probably won't pay it, if you choose to call them they might negotiate a payment schedule or reduced balance. Depending on state law it might be picked up by a state agency for uninsured reimbursement, otherwise it probably gets sent to collections, it might eventually get settled for whatever % is finally agreed upon.

Why is this somehow fundamentally different than the many thousands of dollars the average American has in credit card debt?


Banks can control risk and not give you a loan. Hospitals have to treat you. If you don't pay then those of us with insurance pick up the tab through higher premiums.

I personally have no problem with a massachusets type plan that forces you to buy insurance just like auto insurance. And pass a law so that medical bills aren't discharged in bankruptcy and let hospitals place liens on property of people that don't pay their hospital bill
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Old 07-21-09, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
I personally have no problem with a massachusets type plan that forces you to buy insurance just like auto insurance. And pass a law so that medical bills aren't discharged in bankruptcy and let hospitals place liens on property of people that don't pay their hospital bill
I damn sure have a problem with it - both of those suggestions.
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Old 07-21-09, 07:24 PM
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If you don't want to pay for your medical care doesn't mean society has to
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Old 07-21-09, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I damn sure have a problem with it - both of those suggestions.
Because other people should pay?
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Old 07-21-09, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
Banks can control risk and not give you a loan. Hospitals have to treat you. If you don't pay then those of us with insurance pick up the tab through higher premiums.

I personally have no problem with a massachusets type plan that forces you to buy insurance just like auto insurance. And pass a law so that medical bills aren't discharged in bankruptcy and let hospitals place liens on property of people that don't pay their hospital bill
I wasn't describing my preferred system. I was describing reality. It's inefficient and puts an unfair burden on medical providers, but the concept of the uninsured being thrown untreated from Emergency Rooms is an imaginary construct.
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Old 07-21-09, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
I personally have no problem with a massachusets type plan that forces you to buy insurance just like auto insurance.
WSJ article said that the Massachusetts program wasn't working that well because people only signed up for insurance, ran up med bills, then dropped the insurance.

And sure, there are laws that say auto insurance is needed, yet we have many uninsured drivers and so we then have uninsured motorist coverage.
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Old 07-21-09, 09:03 PM
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then go after people's property

won't work 100% but if someone runs up $50,000 in medical bills and can't pay just put a lien on their house or business. don't kick them out but they will have to pay it when they sell or it will be sold off in probate. and don't allow medical bills to be dissolved in bankruptcy, just like student loans. i don't see why i have to pay higher premiums just because some people refuse to buy insurance and when they run up bills they decide it's not fair they have to pay

the hospitals may even carry it as assets and get loans against the property to carry them over until they can monetize it.

i've read about Mass a while ago, but i thought they make you buy insurance through medicaid or tax you if you don't buy it?
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Old 07-21-09, 09:26 PM
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Yeah, I know it's an op-ed, but it's a good case about why it's not a good system. Everyone pays the same premium - that's fair?
The Massachusetts Health Mess
Massachusetts shows how ObamaCare would really work.

In a rational world, the prognosis for ObamaCare would wait on the evidence in Massachusetts, given that the commonwealth's 2006 program closely resembles what Democrats are trying to do in Washington. If the results were widely known, it might be dead on arrival.

The Massachusetts law, which was championed by former GOP Governor Mitt Romney, imposed an individual mandate, requiring nearly all residents to buy health insurance or else pay a penalty. (The exceptions are those who qualify for the state's public program.) This was supposed to cover everybody and save money too. We've written before about how costs have exploded, but it also turns out that consumers have other ideas.

For 15 years Massachusetts has also imposed mandates known as guaranteed issue and community rating -- meaning that insurers must cover anyone who applies, regardless of health or pre-existing conditions, and also charge everyone the same premium (or close to it). Yet these mandates allow people to wait until they're sick, or just before they're about to incur major medical expenses, to buy insurance. This drives up costs for everyone else, which helps explain why small-group coverage in Massachusetts is so much more expensive than in most of the country. Mr. Romney argued -- as Democrats are arguing now -- that the individual mandate would make that problem disappear, since everyone is always supposed to be covered.

Well, the returns are rolling in, and a useful case study comes from the community-based health plan Harvard-Pilgrim. CEO Charlie Baker reports that his company has seen an "astonishing" uptick in people buying coverage for a few months at a time, running up high medical bills, and then dumping the policy after treatment is completed and paid for. Harvard-Pilgrim estimates that between April 2008 and March 2009, about 40% of its new enrollees stayed with it for fewer than five months and on average incurred about $2,400 per person in monthly medical expenses. That's about 600% higher than Harvard-Pilgrim would have otherwise expected.

The individual mandate penalty for not having coverage is only about $900, so people seem to be gaming the Massachusetts system. "This is a problem," Mr. Baker writes on his blog, in the understatement of the year. "It is raising the prices paid by individuals and small businesses who are doing the right thing by purchasing twelve months of health insurance, and it's turning the whole notion of shared responsibility on its ear."

Mr. Baker is right, though he underestimates the extent to which it is rational for people to do this, considering the government-mandated incentives. To one degree or another all insurance pools require the younger and healthier to subsidize the older and sicker, though part of the risk-sharing bargain is the hedge against unanticipated or future health problems -- i.e., true insurance. The combination of guaranteed issue and community rating actively encourages parts of the healthier population to forgo coverage and thus blow up voluntary risk pools. No doubt our politicians will conclude that the solution is to raise the penalty for going uninsured, though it would be easier and more rational to let insurance markets function without mandates.

For many Democrats, none of this is really a surprise, or even important. Their Rube Goldberg rules are meant to transfer the costs of health care away from individuals and onto someone else -- private companies like Harvard-Pilgrim in the short term, and over time onto taxpayers. Why lobbyist Karen Ignagni is still putting the health-insurance industry's head on the Washington chopping block is a mystery for the ages.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124726287099225209.html
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