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Health care reform discussion continues...

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Health care reform discussion continues...

Old 07-21-09, 01:30 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
As oppose to the quasi-religious faith some have in the government? It isn't my love of corporations that shapes my opinion, but my mistrust of government.


I just did, and your assumption is off base. Now put into words your quasi-religious faith in the government.
No you didn't. You pulled a one liner about who scares you more. Lord knows a scared rabbit makes the best decisions doesn't it?

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So we need a system that speeds up how quickly we go broke? That's not going to convince me.
No.

We need to try something else, since we have a for-sure failure as it now. That's such basic logic.

The fact that every other major industrial nation on earth has managed to make it work, work well, work far better than our system, might be considered encouraging to a thinking man. We are the only exception, and we're the fuck ups. No getting around that kvr, no matter how many word games or "I'm more scared of this than that". We are the joke of industrialized nations. They can't believe how stupid and easily manipulated American citizens are. I can't either frankly.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:32 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
I still haven't seen anyone put forth why they have such a quasi-religious faith in greedy billionaires who are bilking the US into ruin.

It'll be funny for someone to actually try to put that into words. Someone give it a shot.

The model we have now is a 100% failure. No doubt, no question, no possibility of any other outcome. Under this system the US goes broke in 2-3 decades.

That's not very far off.
Yes but we will have far more billionaires than all other countries. Well except maybe Brazil. But they are far more advanced than we are in terms of concentrating wealth.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:33 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
What's wrong with the global catastrophic coverage? Keeps people out of the poor house, etc. Solves the problems the propaganda you prefer seems to yell about. Just not enough government involvement? Doesn't cost enough?
So you seriously expect that to pass?

Give a scenario where you think that will actually go through and be passed.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:34 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
No you didn't. You pulled a one liner about who scares you more. Lord knows a scared rabbit makes the best decisions doesn't it?

And that's exactly how most Presidents govern....they try to scare people into agreeing that what they propose is necessary, right, and must be done immediately.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
"Quasi-religious faith in greedy billionaires." That's some interesting spin. I don't see it as faith in greedy billionaires. I see it as distrust of government controlling more facets of life. I've seen this distrust from you in numerous areas.
I get around on the issues.

Ok so you have corrupt people who are actively ruining the system and killing people in the US.(how is it I'm sure no one actually read even 5 stories of actual cases from the Obama website?) But 'fear of the government' makes people stay with that?

You know the health care companies COULD reform themselves if they weren't so corrupt and greedy. You can't count on Standard Oil to ever restrain itself.

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I don't know if the current system is 100% failure. I'm doubtful - I happen to like my insurance plan. Even if it is 100% failure, some of us happen to believe that you put government in control and you'll get 110% failure.
We are now ~56 trillion in debt to in unfunded liabilities. And you have to bear in mind big pharma and insurance and hospital corporations are raising costs at up to 300% of inflation. That prediction is at current rates so there's no doubt it's low.

These simple facts come from David Walker, the last comptroller general of the US government. Plenty of other reputable sources too, no one really tried to dispute that.

It's 100% we will fail. That or just let tens of millions of the elderly die and give them no coverage of any type. We fail then too, but because of some type of civil unrest most likely.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:48 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
And that's exactly how most Presidents govern....they try to scare people into agreeing that what they propose is necessary, right, and must be done immediately.
Actually this has been tried once before. It failed, and the situation has gotten magnitudes, exponentially worse by any way you care to measure it.

I agree Bush and Obama pulled of TARP, stimulus, and etc. with 'scare the hell out of them'.

But I'm not scared. I've just spent time informing myself on this. It's been something I've had a problem with for years.

I was posting here about this stuff before Obama was elected.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:48 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
No you didn't. You pulled a one liner about who scares you more. Lord knows a scared rabbit makes the best decisions doesn't it?
I did. Distrust of the group that is going to save us is the only rationale I need. You seem to think there is great logic in trusting an evil man because you need to make some sort of change or bad things will happen in 30 years. I think there are better plans by waiting rather than dealing with the only option which must be done quickly to save us. Just like how the Stimulus bill was passed by scaring us that if we didn't we'd see 10% unemployment, then they passed it, didn't spend it, and said that we couldn't avoid 10% unemployment. But you think they are someone to be trusted with the current scare crisis? I don't.
We need to try something else, since we have a for-sure failure as it now. That's such basic logic.
That is not basic logic. By that logic we should cut off a leg because all efforts to save the arm have failed. WE MUST TRY SOMETHING ELSE!!!!

When faced with a problem that will destroy us all in 30 years, I don't trust the government that says we have 3 days to go with their plan that they haven't read yet.

The fact that every other major industrial nation on earth has managed to make it work, work well, work far better than our system, might be considered encouraging to a thinking man. We are the only exception, and we're the fuck ups. No getting around that kvr, no matter how many word games or "I'm more scared of this than that". We are the joke of industrialized nations. They can't believe how stupid and easily manipulated American citizens are. I can't either frankly.
It's all part of an overall economy. They also feel quite normal at 10% unemployment. It all works together. I don't want that to be the way we live.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:49 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
So you seriously expect that to pass?

Give a scenario where you think that will actually go through and be passed.
No. For the reason I already mentioned. It makes too much sense for government to consider.

For you and others it's either A or B. You tell us to look at France in response to the bad we cite in Canada and the UK. We say okay, now you look at Singapore. You say I'm not going to consider that because it can't pass. Lovely. Unfortunately, with our government, that's how debates are won and bad policy is made.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:50 PM
  #34  
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
So you seriously expect that to pass?

Give a scenario where you think that will actually go through and be passed.
One in which it is presented. How would that be for a start? You sure aren't going to get the Republicans on board for the current plan. You'd get enough to pass this plan. Especially after having gone with the "take over the world" plan first. This would look like utopia.

Again, it is because it doesn't give the government enough power that it cant' pass. Because it will never be considered or presented. It doesn't scratch the liberal itch.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:51 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
The fact that every other major industrial nation on earth has managed to make it work, work well, work far better than our system, might be considered encouraging to a thinking man. We are the only exception, and we're the fuck ups. No getting around that kvr, no matter how many word games or "I'm more scared of this than that". We are the joke of industrialized nations. They can't believe how stupid and easily manipulated American citizens are. I can't either frankly.
But...but...but...wait times.... bureaucrat between my and my doctor...
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Old 07-21-09, 01:53 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
And that's exactly how most Presidents govern....they try to scare people into agreeing that what they propose is necessary, right, and must be done immediately.
Because they want to redistribute wealth, right?
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Old 07-21-09, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
It's 100% we will fail.
Glad you disagree with scare tactics. Because nothing else could ever happen or be done except what The Obama has proposed and not read.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
But...but...but...wait times.... bureaucrat between my and my doctor...
CRM - What's wrong with the catastrophic plan?
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Old 07-21-09, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Because they want to redistribute wealth, right?
No. I said most Presidents - meaning in all sorts of policy areas.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:58 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
No. For the reason I already mentioned. It makes too much sense for government to consider.

For you and others it's either A or B. You tell us to look at France in response to the bad we cite in Canada and the UK. We say okay, now you look at Singapore. You say I'm not going to consider that because it can't pass. Lovely. Unfortunately, with our government, that's how debates are won and bad policy is made.
I haven't said ANYTHING about 'A or B'. That's not accurate man.

We have this failing corrupt system that is ruining millions of lives a year, if not outright killing them. And we have one plan that will bring about change to that. Surely no one here thinks I'm a fan of Obama? You have a short memory if you do.

I am for changing the current failure. I have posted a long ways back I don't like the current plan as it doesn't address the corruption. Ideally I would have the government do it's job and simply address the profiteering and corruption. But that won't happen. We are simply past that at the factual, plain old pragmatic level. No ideology involved.

I think the propaganda war that is going on now, I saw three different TV ads by big pharma today, two more by insurance companies, is obviously working. The sheep-like weak minded Americans are being scared out of wanting some type of change in healthcare. Th polls are showing this and have been for at least a couple of weeks.

I am for something different, a large scale change, that will open the door to truly addressing the corruption down the road at least.
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Old 07-21-09, 01:58 PM
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I just don't understand this mindset that liberals want to enact programs simply to redistribute wealth. It's a very twisted and sad view of the government.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:00 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
CRM - What's wrong with the catastrophic plan?
So if I was some dude without insurance, let's skip over the reasons for now, and I had stomach pain and was told to get a CT scan and an MRI, would that be "catastrophic?" How many tests and specialist would have to be paid before it reached that point? Remember, this is just DIAGNOSIS.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:01 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Glad you disagree with scare tactics. Because nothing else could ever happen or be done except what The Obama has proposed and not read.
Good grief.

That is a fact. We are 100% headed for failure. Obama has sped that up with his ridiculous spending.

Watch this kvr will you?

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Old 07-21-09, 02:17 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I just don't understand this mindset that liberals want to enact programs simply to redistribute wealth. It's a very twisted and sad view of the government.
I don't think redistribution is the primary goal, but there is a lot of what liberals think they do in the name of "fairness" that make them no better than.

CS Lewis was right.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:22 PM
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I don't think the goal of liberals is to transfer wealth. I think the goal of liberals is to enact government entitlement programs. By their very nature, entitlement programs are going to require some form of wealth transfer - wealth transfer is a method of achieving the goal.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:24 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I don't think the goal of liberals is to transfer wealth. I think the goal of liberals is to enact government entitlement programs. By their very nature, entitlement programs are going to require some form of wealth transfer.
Agreed.

But 'conservatives' went south when they embraced corruption and unrestrained greed.

Pick either ideological 'side', and the people in the US lose.

On the health care issue, I'm for changing from us being the worst on earth in any industrialized nation.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:31 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
So if I was some dude without insurance, let's skip over the reasons for now, and I had stomach pain and was told to get a CT scan and an MRI, would that be "catastrophic?" How many tests and specialist would have to be paid before it reached that point? Remember, this is just DIAGNOSIS.
And so it begins.....it will just never be fair enough. It is no longer about the family that goes bankrupt, but now about the guy that needs ANYTHING!

Put a $5,000 or $10,000 deductable. Insurance plans that cover up to that amount should be darn cheap with such a low ceiling. And it isn't so much that you will have all the sob stories about bankruptcy due to medical bills. But I realize that isn't enough for you, now that you are presented with it. There isn't enough "fairness" in that plan that merely solves the problems that we claimed needed to be solved.
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Old 07-21-09, 02:35 PM
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Re: Health care reform discussion continues...

Here is David Walker form this year. Kudlow is a clown really, but it's on his network int he first video. The second video is a bit more in depth if you care to watch it.

Notice we won't be able to pay for Medicare and Social Security in 10 years. Really think about that.



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Old 07-21-09, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
Good grief.

That is a fact. We are 100% headed for failure. Obama has sped that up with his ridiculous spending.

Watch this kvr will you?

This is 100% correct. Our entitlements will kill us. The biggest mistake made was the prescription coverage for seniors. And now you tell me that the solution is to do the same thing but for the entire populace.

You watched this as well, correct?
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Old 07-21-09, 02:41 PM
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If our problem is entitlements, why is the solution more entitlements?
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