Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Religion, Politics and World Events
Reload this Page >

Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Old 03-31-09, 11:08 AM
  #1  
Admin
Thread Starter
 
VinVega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Herding cats
Posts: 34,766
Received 318 Likes on 203 Posts
Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Original thread: HERE
Old 03-31-09, 11:13 AM
  #2  
Admin
Thread Starter
 
VinVega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Herding cats
Posts: 34,766
Received 318 Likes on 203 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Didn't Reagan fire all of the air traffic controllers at one point?

I'm pretty sure the GM Board is the only group who can "fire" a CEO of the company.
I thought the air traffic controllers were part of the FAA and therefore federal employees. It seems a bit different than forcing the CEO of a private corporation to resign. However, given the bailout, I think that gives the government some say in how the company operates until they no longer need the bailout money.
Old 03-31-09, 11:20 AM
  #3  
DVD Talk Legend
 
sracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 14,869
Received 32 Likes on 22 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
I thought the air traffic controllers were part of the FAA and therefore federal employees. It seems a bit different than forcing the CEO of a private corporation to resign. However, given the bailout, I think that gives the government some say in how the company operates until they no longer need the bailout money.
In addition, the air traffic controllers had a no-strike clause in their contract (which they broke). The only point of commonality between the two situations is that "the president was involved". And if Reagan was guilty of "union busting" then Obama is guilty of "union protection"... protection in the organized crime sense of the word.
Old 03-31-09, 11:23 AM
  #4  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 41,948
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
In addition, the air traffic controllers had a no-strike clause in their contract (which they broke). The only point of commonality between the two situations is that "the president was involved". And if Reagan was guilty of "union busting" then Obama is guilty of "union protection"... protection in the organized crime sense of the word.
There was no non-strike clause in the PATCO contract. There was a statute forbidding federal employees from striking, but it was a statute that had been ignored multiple times prior to the PATCO strike.
Old 03-31-09, 11:36 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dr Mabuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 75 clicks above the Do Lung bridge...
Posts: 18,946
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Wagoner is/was an incompetent buffoon. He needed to be fired as he was nothing more than bullshit artist.

The fact that he was fired by the government is a precedent, and it has some ugly implications.
Old 03-31-09, 11:41 AM
  #6  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,189
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114
I'd say the Corvette is one the best cars around. Cadillac makes some decent cars too. (Obama also referenced the Buick line which ranked near the top on some report - JD Power?)
Don't get me wrong, they make soem incredible cars and trucks. That does not mean they make money. I would guess that the Chevy and GMC trucks are pretty profitable. However, government intervention of placing a CAFE standard is part of what will lead to to their inability to make a profit, which will be blamed on the car company rather than government regulations. And in talking about losing 250,000 workers, we've done that several times over already, and we will lose far more than that before we start to turn around. I don't see that as justification for making GM part of the government.

BUT, I don't think we would really lose all those jobs. GM needs to go into true bankruptcy restructuring. One of the first, easiest things I would do is make the Truck line it's own company. No cars made by them at all. That gets them around the CAFE standards, and leaves them with a very profitable line. And I know people hate to think of the union getting the shaft, but that is what happens when businesses go out of business. My own little area had an aluminum smelter go under in 2002. With that went all the ESOP and retirement plans that amounted to $250,000 for the long time employees on down to around $50,000 for the newer (still several years) employees. I know how much that sucks because I have lived through it in my area and people who thought they had a great retirement lined up got shafted. The UAW isn't the first this will have happened to, and it sucks, but the only other option is to just make it another government entity that costs money rather than makes money. When it happens to places like mine with only about 500 employees, no one seems to care, though.
Old 03-31-09, 11:43 AM
  #7  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

The President merely laid out conditions for the bailout money. The GM Board did not have to accept those conditions. The President probably felt that the CEO of GM did not do an adequate job of coming up with a plan on how he would use the taxpayer funds.
Old 03-31-09, 11:46 AM
  #8  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Don't get me wrong, they make soem incredible cars and trucks. That does not mean they make money. I would guess that the Chevy and GMC trucks are pretty profitable. However, government intervention of placing a CAFE standard is part of what will lead to to their inability to make a profit, which will be blamed on the car company rather than government regulations. And in talking about losing 250,000 workers, we've done that several times over already, and we will lose far more than that before we start to turn around. I don't see that as justification for making GM part of the government.

BUT, I don't think we would really lose all those jobs. GM needs to go into true bankruptcy restructuring. One of the first, easiest things I would do is make the Truck line it's own company. No cars made by them at all. That gets them around the CAFE standards, and leaves them with a very profitable line. And I know people hate to think of the union getting the shaft, but that is what happens when businesses go out of business. My own little area had an aluminum smelter go under in 2002. With that went all the ESOP and retirement plans that amounted to $250,000 for the long time employees on down to around $50,000 for the newer (still several years) employees. I know how much that sucks because I have lived through it in my area and people who thought they had a great retirement lined up got shafted. The UAW isn't the first this will have happened to, and it sucks, but the only other option is to just make it another government entity that costs money rather than makes money. When it happens to places like mine with only about 500 employees, no one seems to care, though.
It's not just GM that goes under. Its all of GM's suppliers since GM would be relieved of the debt. Millions would be effected and possibly equally important, the nation's ability to equip our military would be greatly diminished.
Old 03-31-09, 11:46 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,189
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

There isn't an adequate plan, imo. Like the article in the last thread said, they have been restructuring for 30 years.
Old 03-31-09, 11:49 AM
  #10  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

I'm still calling for the $20,000 tax credit for purchase of a Corvette.
Old 03-31-09, 11:51 AM
  #11  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,189
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
It's not just GM that goes under. Its all of GM's suppliers since GM would be relieved of the debt. Millions would be effected and possibly equally important, the nation's ability to equip our military would be greatly diminished.
Keeping a huge amount of unprofitable cars being built to secure parts for our military seems a bit inefficient, don't you think? Again, GM would end up looking very different, but parts would still be around, and those parts would make money. The suppliers would likely end up restructuring as well, but I have no problem with that. I don't think you keep them supplying parts to something that loses money just to keep them around for the military (unless you are government). They probably get smaller, but still supply to the military. I do not believe for one second that the military will be unable to find a supplier to make the things it needs. If you need to subsidize the suppliers during a period of flux to ensure the military, that is what you do in the name of national defence, but you don't keep keep the house or cards aloft because you need the ace of diamonds at the bottom.
Old 03-31-09, 12:20 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,178
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
The President merely laid out conditions for the bailout money.
And assured Wagoner that either his brains or his signature would be on the contract.
Old 03-31-09, 12:31 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,189
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I'm still calling for the $20,000 tax credit for purchase of a Corvette.
I could get behind that.
Old 03-31-09, 01:21 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 37,155
Received 900 Likes on 709 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

So GM has followed Ford's (who followed Hyundai's) lead and promised to pay out up to nine months of car payments (up to 500 a month) for those who buy a new car but lose their job. Is the government going to back this as well, or if there's a restructuring, will this go out the window?
Old 03-31-09, 02:09 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Words
Posts: 28,204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

1. Why are they even considering throwing good money after bad money? Let them die off and be forced to consolidate.
2. A huge amount of the blame goes to the union, who's strong-arm tactics helped drive these companies into the ground.
3. The other part of the blame goes to upper-management who actively fought against change, which caused HUGE losses in research and production.
Old 03-31-09, 02:16 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,189
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by pedagogue View Post
1. Why are they even considering throwing good money after bad money? Let them die off and be forced to consolidate.
2. A huge amount of the blame goes to the union, who's strong-arm tactics helped drive these companies into the ground.
3. The other part of the blame goes to upper-management who actively fought against change, which caused HUGE losses in research and production.
Because Obama wants to be the savior and this will be payback for the unions, imo. When has anything stopped the government from throwing good money after bad?

I think it is obvious from a longer term outlook to let them go under and truly restructure. I don't expect the unions to give up anything (they have said they have already given up plenty). I don't see Obama allowing bankruptcy restructuring to happen either. The big question is how he will sell the continual bail out over the next few months and years to the American people. Congress will go along with it at least until the next election cycle.
Old 03-31-09, 02:46 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SnogBox
Posts: 7,835
Received 52 Likes on 37 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

I didn't check the end of P1, but I assume you all mentioned the official statement from the IRS on the tax deduction for sales tax?

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/...205863,00.html
Old 03-31-09, 02:52 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

That's not even for American cars only.
Old 03-31-09, 10:54 PM
  #19  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 27,320
Received 147 Likes on 100 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

It's over.
Old 03-31-09, 11:04 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,766
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 6 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

The first quarter, anyway.
Old 04-01-09, 08:26 AM
  #21  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,193
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
It's not just GM that goes under. Its all of GM's suppliers since GM would be relieved of the debt. Millions would be effected and possibly equally important, the nation's ability to equip our military would be greatly diminished.
auto parts can't be that much business for Lockheed, Northrop and General Dynamics?
Old 04-01-09, 08:28 AM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,193
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
So GM has followed Ford's (who followed Hyundai's) lead and promised to pay out up to nine months of car payments (up to 500 a month) for those who buy a new car but lose their job. Is the government going to back this as well, or if there's a restructuring, will this go out the window?

buffet's company does the same thing for credit cards. just charge a few extra $$$ and call it insurance
Old 04-01-09, 09:05 AM
  #23  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
BKenn01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Big Blue Nation!
Posts: 4,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

And I know people hate to think of the union getting the shaft,
Not me
Old 04-01-09, 10:00 AM
  #24  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 126,333
Received 230 Likes on 185 Posts
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

A commenter on reason wondered how come it was so easy to fire a CEO of GM, yet it can take up to a year to fire a federal employee.
Old 04-01-09, 10:12 AM
  #25  
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 42,731
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Do American automakers deserve a bailout? ptII

Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
auto parts can't be that much business for Lockheed, Northrop and General Dynamics?
Do they make tanks?

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.