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View Poll Results: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?
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What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Old 04-06-10, 01:45 PM
  #576  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

This does not surprise me:


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...-89852362.html

Public sector unions and state debt go hand in hand

By: David Freddoso

04/04/10 9:00 AM EDT

There are hundreds of reasons why states accrue debt. In some cases, it has to do with special programs they pursue. In others, it has to do with their method of taxation.

But the states with the highest per-capita debt all have something in common: Robust public-sector unions that have, over the years, cut sweetheart deals with politicians -- usually, but not always, Democrats.

In the graph below, each blue square represents a state (some are labeled), plotted by its per-capita debt and the percentage of state and municipal workers in public sector unions.



The data comes from the U.S. Census Bureau, the Tax Foundation, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, whose labor numbers are charted in this paper from the CATO Institute. The numbers for unionization run from 2006 through 2009, and the numbers for debt are 2007, before the current crisis. If anything, this presents a rosier picture for most states than the current one.

A rigorous study would control for dozens of factors, but this chart demonstrates the correlation between state unionism and debt.

As you can see in the graph, the states coalesce into three main groups:

* Among states whose government workers are less than 40 percent unionized, median per capita state debt is $2,238.

* Among states with between 40 and 60 percent of their government workers in public sector unions, the average debt is $3,609.

* Among states with more than 60 percent of the government workforce unionized, the average (median) per capita debt is $6,380.


As you keep an eye on the fiscal collapse of California, and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie's (R) efforts to rein in the unions' power next year, bear in mind that this is quickly becoming the biggest fiscal issue in America today.

Do public sector unions really protect workers from exploitation, or do they merely bankrupt the treasuries of states nationwide? And more immediately, will the states that made poor fiscal choices get a second bailout from the federal taxpayer after the 2009 stimulus package?
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Old 04-06-10, 02:23 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
If any of you don't believe in unions, you're wrong 100% of the time, and your thoughts and ideas on labor are stupid, antiquated, and irrelevant.
Are you sure you aren't channeling Dr. Mabuse?

And not all unions are great for their members. I have a friend in a Union. The company they work for is on the brink of going out of business (they do commercial fire sprinkler installation) and they union has been planning on striking for the last month despite the vast majority of their members just being happy they have a job. Complete lunacy.

Last edited by orangecrush; 04-06-10 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 04-06-10, 03:28 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

So you're telling me that every job should be based on seniority, not necessarily performance or skill? I'm sure not all unions are this way, but it seems like the state unions always have layoffs of the newest workers first, regardless of performance.
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Old 04-06-10, 03:36 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Legalize marijuana, allow gambling, (especially internet) I wouldn't be surprised that they could save/generate 5-25B in revenue.
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Old 04-06-10, 04:48 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
Everyone should be unionized, or at least have the option to do so. In this "system" we have, corporations will treat their employees like dogshit unless they are forced to do otherwise....if not today, eventually. But they will all do it, every last one.

Had the United Aeronautics Workers never formed, I'd have probably made about $500,000 in the time it took me to make $970,000....and the company CEO's would have pocketed every dime of the difference had there been no union representation. They would NOT have passed "the savings" on to customers buying helicopters and jets. And they won't pass "the savings" on to you when you buy a Ford Mustang, not one penny of it. The difference is this: you can pay the CEO even MORE for the "priveledge" of buying his product when you purchase non-union items, or you can spread the $ among the people who do the TRUE LABOR involved in the manufacture of the product.

If any of you don't believe in unions, you're wrong 100% of the time, and your thoughts and ideas on labor are stupid, antiquated, and irrelevant.
These are not corporations, but the government.
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Old 04-06-10, 05:29 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

I'm liberal, and I am totally anti-union. They served a purpose at one time, not any longer.
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Old 04-06-10, 05:45 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

I think there is a big difference between arguing against the very idea of unions and arguing against what unions have become.
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Old 04-06-10, 05:46 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
Everyone should be unionized, or at least have the option to do so. In this "system" we have, corporations will treat their employees like dogshit unless they are forced to do otherwise....if not today, eventually. But they will all do it, every last one.

Had the United Aeronautics Workers never formed, I'd have probably made about $500,000 in the time it took me to make $970,000....and the company CEO's would have pocketed every dime of the difference had there been no union representation. They would NOT have passed "the savings" on to customers buying helicopters and jets. And they won't pass "the savings" on to you when you buy a Ford Mustang, not one penny of it. The difference is this: you can pay the CEO even MORE for the "priveledge" of buying his product when you purchase non-union items, or you can spread the $ among the people who do the TRUE LABOR involved in the manufacture of the product.

If any of you don't believe in unions, you're wrong 100% of the time, and your thoughts and ideas on labor are stupid, antiquated, and irrelevant.
While its whole name is the International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America, UAW stood for United Auto Workers.
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Old 04-06-10, 07:00 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
If any of you don't believe in unions, you're wrong 100% of the time, and your thoughts and ideas on labor are stupid, antiquated, and irrelevant.
Not when it is union of taxpayer paid employees (government workers). A union with private companies is fine but when it is a group of people providing a basic purpose strong enough that government needs to run it - those should not be union represented. No way.

We can thank Jerry Brown for this financial mess more than anyone else.. I can't believe that asshat is running again. I furthermore can't believe anyone with half a brain cell would even consider voting for him.
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Old 04-06-10, 09:27 PM
  #585  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
Everyone should be unionized, or at least have the option to do so. In this "system" we have, corporations will treat their employees like dogshit unless they are forced to do otherwise....if not today, eventually. But they will all do it, every last one.

Had the United Aeronautics Workers never formed, I'd have probably made about $500,000 in the time it took me to make $970,000....and the company CEO's would have pocketed every dime of the difference had there been no union representation. They would NOT have passed "the savings" on to customers buying helicopters and jets. And they won't pass "the savings" on to you when you buy a Ford Mustang, not one penny of it. The difference is this: you can pay the CEO even MORE for the "priveledge" of buying his product when you purchase non-union items, or you can spread the $ among the people who do the TRUE LABOR involved in the manufacture of the product.

If any of you don't believe in unions, you're wrong 100% of the time, and your thoughts and ideas on labor are stupid, antiquated, and irrelevant.
Mr. Lemmy, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Oh, and unions exist only to feed themselves and suck the world dry of every last cent for the least amount of work possible. Any organization that places seniority over skill and performance will fail.
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Old 04-06-10, 10:06 PM
  #586  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
Not when it is union of taxpayer paid employees (government workers). A union with private companies is fine but when it is a group of people providing a basic purpose strong enough that government needs to run it - those should not be union represented. No way.

We can thank Jerry Brown for this financial mess more than anyone else.. I can't believe that asshat is running again. I furthermore can't believe anyone with half a brain cell would even consider voting for him.
Then I hope he wins. It's a little sinister, but it is kind of fun watching California's demise from a safe distance.
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Old 04-06-10, 10:50 PM
  #587  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Then I hope he wins. It's a little sinister, but it is kind of fun watching California's demise from a safe distance.
I'm right in the middle of it but I'm beginning to want the implosion to occur just because it has to. And that will be just a little sooner than the national one.
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Old 04-07-10, 12:49 AM
  #588  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by General Zod View Post
We can thank Jerry Brown for this financial mess more than anyone else.. I can't believe that asshat is running again. I furthermore can't believe anyone with half a brain cell would even consider voting for him.
I would be interested in how this is Jerry Brown's fault.
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Old 04-07-10, 08:47 AM
  #589  
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
I would be interested in how this is Jerry Brown's fault.
Because 30 years ago Brown championed the Dill Act to the give public unions bargaining power. Now state pension liabilities alone is a half a trillion dollars. Not to mention the state union workers don't have to worry about layoffs, make more money than equivalent private sector jobs, and while California we are told is running out of money they continue to hire more and more.

While the rest of the state is suffering the state union workers are making more than ever and will all retire with Cadillac pensions while the rest of the state simply gets taxed more to support them.
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Old 04-07-10, 09:32 AM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Employers choosing whom to hire and fire? And deciding their wages?

Insanity.
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Old 04-07-10, 09:50 AM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Birrman54 View Post
Employers choosing whom to hire and fire? And deciding their wages?

Insanity.
I know... we should go back to gate picking, company housing, and company stores. Work at any wage the employer chooses, or better yet just company store credits. Stuff like that.

These commies have screwed up America!

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Old 04-07-10, 09:51 AM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
No unions are 100% this way. But in "unskilled" and some "semi-skilled" jobs, seniority should be the only thing that matters. otherwise, why even count it? I guess we just let the bosses choose who they'll lay off, eh?
Ok, you're losing me here, unless you're being sarcastic and it's going over my head.

First off, you said that everyone should be in a union, which I am assuming included all semi skilled and skilled jobs.

Second, you're telling me that performance shouldn't matter even in unskilled jobs? That I should be able to keep my job over the next guy because I've been here a day longer, not because I can do my job better? Why should I even try to get better at my job, if it doesn't make a lick of difference? That seems to reward mediocrity. I'm sure it gets even better as I hang on in the twilight years just to up my pension.

Third, if the government wasn't paying enough, or didn't have enough benefits to offset the pay, then wouldn't most people find work in the private sector?

As an aside, I think you can put some of the blame on Jerry Brown, but c'mon, these idiots have been running the state on a spending spree like the money would never stop. You'd think the dot com bubble would've woken them up, but no, they went right on to the housing bubble, increasing their "budget" every year with no easy way to cut back. The latest proposal by the Mayor is to cut two days out of the week for most non-public-safety workers... I'm sure that 40% cut in hours is going to go over well with the unions and the public.
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Old 04-07-10, 10:57 AM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
And any blue-collar person who would choose a non-union position over a union one is simply a fool, and deserve what their choice brings them.
I think we will have to agree to disagree about this.
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Old 04-07-10, 12:41 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Who needs unions when we have Democrats and Republicans?
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Old 04-07-10, 01:01 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
No unions are 100% this way. But in "unskilled" and some "semi-skilled" jobs, seniority should be the only thing that matters. otherwise, why even count it? I guess we just let the bosses choose who they'll lay off, eh?
Seniority only not even considering performance? Even in unskilled or semi-skilled work this doesn't make sense. Why even count it is exactly the right question to ask.

Last edited by msdmoney; 04-07-10 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 04-07-10, 01:43 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
No unions are 100% this way. But in "unskilled" and some "semi-skilled" jobs, seniority should be the only thing that matters. otherwise, why even count it? I guess we just let the bosses choose who they'll lay off, eh?
Even unskilled jobs can be evaluated based on performance. Cherry picking is considered an unskilled job. But there are people who pick more cherries in an hour than others. Why not let ability and performance matter?
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Old 04-07-10, 01:49 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Even unskilled jobs can be evaluated based on performance. Cherry picking is considered an unskilled job. But there are people who pick more cherries in an hour than others. Why not let ability and performance matter?
Of course you would say that. You are just a corporate shill.
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Old 04-07-10, 02:03 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
I know... we should go back to gate picking, company housing, and company stores. Work at any wage the employer chooses, or better yet just company store credits. Stuff like that.

These commies have screwed up America!

Wonderful straw man you've toppled; me suggesting that employers should be able to run their own business in their own manner is akin to suggesting that we become wage slaves in a company town.

When did we decide a job was something we tricked an employer into giving us - where we live in constant fear of firing lest we be thrown out onto the street unable to find any job because we're so useless and untalented.

I know the value of my skills. I know what other employers would pay me, and I know what I could earn if I freelanced on my own. It is a constant struggle to stay up-to-date on industry trends and to acquire new technical skills that increase my value. My employer can fire me whenever he chooses - it would be his loss and I would find new work elsewhere.

What would you have instead? Should I be able to tell my boss what hours I'll be working? When I deserve a raise? Should I suggest he hire my friends? Buy me a house?

Thanks, but I'll negotiate for myself and I'll know that if I'm fired it's either because of money shortages or because I was no longer needed, not because to the Union I'm an interchangeable cog with a thousand other 'brothers'.
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Old 04-07-10, 02:17 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Dr. Mabuse thinks 99% of the people are nimrods and yet these same nimrods should be entitled to a good-paying job.
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Old 04-07-10, 02:22 PM
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Re: What should California do to solve its $40 billion budget deficit?

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Even unskilled jobs can be evaluated based on performance. Cherry picking is considered an unskilled job. But there are people who pick more cherries in an hour than others. Why not let ability and performance matter?
This is crazy talk. I'm a manager of an IT company and we produce stuff and my employees who produce the most with the highest quality get rewarded with higher pay. Those that slack either don't get a pay rise or get tossed out. I work it this way not because I want to reward good work but because I am a fat rich slob that only want to make the rich richer somehow. Yeah - that's the ticket.
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