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Facts about Joe the plumber

Old 10-20-08, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
Get over it already. No one gives a rat's ass about either Joe because they're irrelevant to this campaign. But if you insist on continuing to whine about it, carry on. This election is bringing out the true character of McCain's supporters.
I agree with you that Joe isn't relevant. The only thing that's relevant is Obama's answer.

None of these "facts" about Joe The Plumber are important. None of it changes Obama's answer. And that is what's relevant to all the small business owners in this country.

Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around. Period.

But you guys are more worried about whether the person's name is Sam or Joe and whether he has his own plumbing license or works as a plumber under the company owner's license. Glad to see Obama supporters are focusing on the important stuff. It's like a lousy SNL skit.
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Old 10-20-08, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
I agree with you that Joe isn't relevant. The only thing that's relevant is Obama's answer.

None of these "facts" about Joe The Plumber are important. None of it changes Obama's answer. And that is what's relevant to all the small business owners in this country.

Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around. Period.
Technically true. But only $30,000 is taxed at that higher rate.

Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
But you guys are more worried about whether the person's name is Sam or Joe and whether he has his own plumbing license or works as a plumber under the company owner's license. Glad to see Obama supporters are focusing on the important stuff. It's like a lousy SNL skit.
Again you are ignoring the fact that McCain made JtP more than a simple guy who asked a question. If McCain's tax plan is so superior why can't McCain stand on that plan? Why did he have to latch on to JtP?
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Old 10-20-08, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around. Period.
And here is the bottom line if you do not own a big business you will be taxed more on McCain plan so he can spread the wealth to big businesses. As McCain put it so the wealth will trickle down.
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Old 10-20-08, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Baron Of Hell View Post
And here is the bottom line if you do not own a big business you will be taxed more on McCain plan so he can spread the wealth to big businesses. As McCain put it so the wealth will trickle down.
But this is only if you believe what Obama is saying and what is tax hike plan will really be. When he gets into office his plan will likely change and that 250K limit will drop to a lower level. Will probably end up being anybody making over 100K.

The next president will raise taxes, no way around it.
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Old 10-20-08, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Technically true. But only $30,000 is taxed at that higher rate.
And, if I recall correctly, the difference between the Obama and McCain plans is about $600.00 at that rate.
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Old 10-20-08, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
I agree with you that Joe isn't relevant. The only thing that's relevant is Obama's answer.

None of these "facts" about Joe The Plumber are important. None of it changes Obama's answer. And that is what's relevant to all the small business owners in this country.

Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around. Period.

But you guys are more worried about whether the person's name is Sam or Joe and whether he has his own plumbing license or works as a plumber under the company owner's license. Glad to see Obama supporters are focusing on the important stuff. It's like a lousy SNL skit.


good ole talking points. What you fail to acknowledge is that under Obama's plan you'd pay about $600 more than under McCain's plan using that $280k example. for the math challenged, that's 0.21% - as in 1 fifth of a percent....OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-20-08, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
But you guys are more worried about whether the person's name is Sam or Joe and whether he has his own plumbing license or works as a plumber under the company owner's license. Glad to see Obama supporters are focusing on the important stuff. It's like a lousy SNL skit.
Read my lips. Nobody gives a shit about Joe's name, his plumbing license, or whatever else. We also don't give a shit about Obama's answer because it doesn't mean he's a socialist. Or a communist. Or a Muslim/Jewish Satan worshipping terrorist.

After reading the comments here, all I can say is, "holy shit". EIGHT YEARS and you all *STILL* haven't learned a lesson yet. I think an economic downturn worse than the Great Depression is the only thing that's going to wake you up. Along comes a guy who's actually a DECENT human being, and the only thing you can do is try to throw crap at him and hope that some sticks in some misguided attempt to prevent the overtake of "communism" or "socialism" or "terrorism". McCarthy was before my time, but I used to read about it in history class thinking to myself, "How can so many people be so blind as to believe this crap?". I didn't understand it back then. But I do now.

Last edited by hahn; 10-20-08 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10-20-08, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around. Period.
I'll be sure to worry about that when I make $280k/yr.

But you haven't really stated the bottom line. I know "fixed" posts are not ok here, but what your statement should have said, to be 100% accurate, to be a true "bottom line," is the following:
Here's the bottom line. If you own a small business that makes $280,000 a year, Obama's going to tax you more than McCain so that he can spread the wealth around just a little bit more than McCain would spread the wealth around. Period.
Taxation by its very nature spreads the wealth around. And a graduated income tax, like we have had for a long time, is designed to spread the wealth around. So unless McCain is advocating for a flat tax (which still spreads the wealth around in a different manner), he too wants to spread the wealth around. Don't you think it is disingenuous of [choose one: McCain, you] to express such vehemence over Obama's use of that statement, yet ignore the fact McCain's plan does the very same thing, at just a slightly different rate? Where is the outrage over his plan to spread the wealth around?

Last edited by LurkerDan; 10-20-08 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 10-20-08, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Where is the outrage over his plan to spread the wealthy around?
Wow. This thread is the last place I expected to see a Paris Hilton joke.
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Old 10-20-08, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Technically true. But only $30,000 is taxed at that higher rate.


Again you are ignoring the fact that McCain made JtP more than a simple guy who asked a question. If McCain's tax plan is so superior why can't McCain stand on that plan? Why did he have to latch on to JtP?
Because McCain and the rest of the GOP are desperate and to throw Yawn Hannity's phrase back into his face - They're coming unhinged and seething...

and I for one LOVE IT.
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Old 10-20-08, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
Read my lips. Nobody gives a shit about Joe's name, his plumbing license, or whatever else.
That's right. No one gives a shit. I don't know why anyone would bother bringing it up in the first place.

Originally Posted by hahn View Post
BTW, Joe the plumber is actually named Sam, isn't a plumber, and won't actually be paying more taxes under Obama's plan.
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Old 10-20-08, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
I'll be sure to worry about that when I make $280k/yr.

But you haven't really stated the bottom line. I know "fixed" posts are not ok here, but what your statement should have said, to be 100% accurate, to be a true "bottom line," is the following:


Taxation by its very nature spreads the wealth around. And a graduated income tax, like we have had for a long time, is designed to spread the wealth around. So unless McCain is advocating for a flat tax (which still spreads the wealth around in a different manner), he too wants to spread the wealth around. Don't you think it is disingenuous of [choose one: McCain, you] to express such vehemence over Obama's use of that statement, yet ignore the fact McCain's plan does the very same thing, at just a slightly different rate? Where is the outrage over his plan to spread the wealth around?
Excellent post. There are two things to consider when talking about this "wealth distribution" nonsense. First, you can't just look at taxation without looking at spending. Where does the tax money <i>go</i>? If it goes right back into the hands of the wealthy, through government contracts and the like, then there might even be redistribution upward. I would think, without having examined this very closely, that the very wealthy and the very poor benefit most from this, with everyone else having a net loss. Second, unless you expect everyone to pay the exact same amount in income tax ($10, $100, whatever) then ceteris paribus, your tax system is redistributive.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
That's right. No one gives a shit. I don't know why anyone would bother bringing it up in the first place.
Ooo...BURN! You got me! I don't know what I was thinking arguing with you.

If you want to vote for McCain on Nov 4, go ahead and vote for him. But don't go pretending that Obama saying "spread the wealth" is the newstory of the year because it indicates he's a socialist/communist/terrorist. Crock o'shit.

Last edited by hahn; 10-20-08 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tcoursen View Post
But this is only if you believe what Obama is saying and what is tax hike plan will really be. When he gets into office his plan will likely change and that 250K limit will drop to a lower level. Will probably end up being anybody making over 100K.

The next president will raise taxes, no way around it.
I believe this to be true. My point was just that it is silly to say Obama plan is bad for spreading the wealth and praise McCain's when all it does is spread the wealth differently.

I have no doubt either guy is going raise taxes on everybody because they won't have much of a choice. However, I think Obama will at least make a attempt to not hammer Middle to low income people. The trickle down way has been tried and proven not to work but McCain is still going to run with.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Excellent post. There are two things to consider when talking about this "wealth distribution" nonsense. First, you can't just look at taxation without looking at spending. Where does the tax money <i>go</i>? If it goes right back into the hands of the wealthy, through government contracts and the like, then there might even be redistribution upward. I would think, without having examined this very closely, that the very wealthy and the very poor benefit most from this, with everyone else having a net loss. Second, unless you expect everyone to pay the exact same amount in income tax ($10, $100, whatever) then ceteris paribus, your tax system is redistributive.
Of course this makes sense. But I've come to the conclusion that you all are wasting your time explaining it. McCain supporters aren't interested in the details. They're interested in scandal. They want an enemy. And if one doesn't exist, gosh darn it, they're gonna create one, you betcha! He can be a Muslim, terrorist, socialist, or communist. Maybe a little bit of all of them.

If Jesus Christ himself ran as a Democrat, they would be convinced that he was Satan in a Jesus Christ costume. That's how belief works. Not with all this factual nonsense you're putting so much effort into.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
Not with all this factual nonsense you're putting so much effort into.
I'm not really putting much effort into this, if it makes you feel better.
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Old 10-20-08, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
Of course this makes sense. But I've come to the conclusion that you all are wasting your time explaining it. McCain supporters aren't interested in the details. They're interested in scandal. They want an enemy. And if one doesn't exist, gosh darn it, they're gonna create one, you betcha! He can be a Muslim, terrorist, socialist, or communist. Maybe a little bit of all of them.
I don't think he's a Muslim, terrorist, or communist. I find much bigger fault in his church membership than I do with any supposed terrorist or muslim connection... his willing participation in that church speaks more to his character than anything else. I'm resentful of the number of African-Americans who are voting for him solely based on race (just as I'm irritated at the number of whites voting against him for the same reason). And I'm resentful of the fact that he's been hyped and shoved down our throat since his speech at the DNC in 2004... I remember commentators in the totally unbiased news media glowing over him then as much as they do now. His rise seems a little artificial and staged to me.

That's pretty much where I get my distaste for the man. That, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he's going to ramrod gun control legislation into law. McCain's not much better in any category, and he's worse in some, but at least with him I'm not afraid of my rights actually being infringed in a tangible manner like I am with Obama.

I also think it's a little disingenuous to point out that "taxation is socialist" by nature without commenting on where in the socialist/capitalist continuum an individual's beliefs fall. Virtually any government plan is going to have socialist elements in it. The degree of the socialist elements determines how palatable I find many of the plans.

If Jesus Christ himself ran as a Democrat, they would be convinced that he was Satan in a Jesus Christ costume.
If Jesus ran as a Democrat? I was pretty much under the impression he was running this year. Surely Farrakhan didn't lie, did he?
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Old 10-20-08, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
That's pretty much where I get my distaste for the man. That, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he's going to ramrod gun control legislation into law. McCain's not much better in any category, and he's worse in some, but at least with him I'm not afraid of my rights actually being infringed in a tangible manner like I am with Obama.
I would be very surprised if he uses his mandate to do anything with gun control. I suspect he's going to use what political capital and coattails he has to deal with taxes and health care (because there's no way a health care plan gets passed unless he does it fast).

He strikes me as someone with enough political savvy to stay away from a hot button issue that doesn't get him much mileage and also consolidates opposition against him.
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Old 10-20-08, 05:59 PM
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There's no way a universal health care plan gets passed period unless there's a drastic change in the economy.
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Old 10-20-08, 06:11 PM
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You know what would be funny? If Joe the Plumber turned out to be an Obama plant and he endorsed Obama this week.

Just picturing McCain cussing and trying to change his ads makes it worth the reverie. Especially if you picture him sitting at the computer trying to do it himself.

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 10-20-08 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 10-20-08, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
You know what would be funny? If Joe the Plumber turned out to be an Obama plant and he endorsed Obama this week.

Just picturing McCain cussing and trying to change his ads makes it worth the reverie. Especially if you picture him sitting at the computer trying to do it himself.
This made me
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Old 10-20-08, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I don't think he's a Muslim, terrorist, or communist. I find much bigger fault in his church membership than I do with any supposed terrorist or muslim connection... his willing participation in that church speaks more to his character than anything else. I'm resentful of the number of African-Americans who are voting for him solely based on race (just as I'm irritated at the number of whites voting against him for the same reason). And I'm resentful of the fact that he's been hyped and shoved down our throat since his speech at the DNC in 2004... I remember commentators in the totally unbiased news media glowing over him then as much as they do now. His rise seems a little artificial and staged to me.

That's pretty much where I get my distaste for the man. That, and the fact that I'm pretty sure he's going to ramrod gun control legislation into law. McCain's not much better in any category, and he's worse in some, but at least with him I'm not afraid of my rights actually being infringed in a tangible manner like I am with Obama.

I also think it's a little disingenuous to point out that "taxation is socialist" by nature without commenting on where in the socialist/capitalist continuum an individual's beliefs fall. Virtually any government plan is going to have socialist elements in it. The degree of the socialist elements determines how palatable I find many of the plans.


If Jesus ran as a Democrat? I was pretty much under the impression he was running this year. Surely Farrakhan didn't lie, did he?
Are you also as resentful of the Caucasians who will vote against Obama because of his race, too? And not just Obama, but all the minorities who have ever attempted to run for public office in American history? Are you resentful that it took this long for a mixed-race individual to be a serious candidate for president? For some reason, I don't think that thought bothers you any...

It just seems like you have a problem with him because he's a great orator and very motivational, and as such, people like him. Now, is that his fault? Is it wrong for our President to have the ability to motivate people? To move people with his words? To instill hope? Surely, you don't mean that.

On the flipside, the Palin nomination has energized the GOP base, but her resume is even more lacking than Obama's and the majority of America has certainly seen that she doesn't even have Obama's speaking abilities. So, do you hold the love that she garners against her as you do against Obama?

I really think that the explanations that people give for their resentment of Obama so often devolves to nonsense. I don't know if it's just a cover-up for other reasons they aren't willing to articulate, but it's really not an acceptable argument.

Lastly, your point on tax is right on the money.
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Old 10-20-08, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Excellent post. There are two things to consider when talking about this "wealth distribution" nonsense. First, you can't just look at taxation without looking at spending. Where does the tax money <i>go</i>? If it goes right back into the hands of the wealthy, through government contracts and the like, then there might even be redistribution upward. I would think, without having examined this very closely, that the very wealthy and the very poor benefit most from this, with everyone else having a net loss. Second, unless you expect everyone to pay the exact same amount in income tax ($10, $100, whatever) then ceteris paribus, your tax system is redistributive.

And to you, I say excellent post, as well. All too often people ignore the distribution side of taxation. They ignore spending. The poor, for the most part, "benefit" more from the social programs that the government runs or contribute to. So, the spending is progressive in that respect. The problem with the Bush tax cuts is that not only did they get rid of the top two brackets for the most wealthy, the cuts in spending occurred in those very social programs that benefited the poor. In a sense, it was a double whammy against progressivity (the poorer folk). A real world example was Hurricane Katrina and the money for the levies. Because of the tax cuts, certain programs and areas were underfunded and the levies were left unmaintained. I don't recall the exact branch/group, but it may have been the Army Corp of Engineers. The levies, while in principle, are supposed to be in place to protect the entire city (and not just the poor), the reality is that there was a much larger population of poorer people put at risk. And look what happened.

Now, an extension of the Bush tax cuts will also require further spending cuts. Based on history, most tax policy experts agree that once again, the poor will suffer on the spending side.
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Old 10-21-08, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mytzplyx View Post
Are you also as resentful of the Caucasians who will vote against Obama because of his race, too? And not just Obama, but all the minorities who have ever attempted to run for public office in American history?
Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said:

I'm resentful of the number of African-Americans who are voting for him solely based on race (just as I'm irritated at the number of whites voting against him for the same reason).
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Old 10-21-08, 09:17 AM
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Did anyone else catch Joe the Plummer on Hannity and Colmes last night? A few interesting tidbits were revealed. Joe talked about the "principle" of not wanting to tax more wealthy folks, but had no problem with not paying his own taxes, lying about his party affiliation or the fact that he WASN'T undecided but decidedly for McCain.

He said he's against socialism and believes in working for what you get and went on to complain that if many of his friends made a few extra dollars more, the government would take away their childcare and food. Joe is against socialism and all about earning your keep but wants his friends to continue to receive government handouts for childcare and foodstamps. Joe must think that the money to fund those programs simply falls out of the sky.

Joe is an idiot.
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