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Facts about Joe the plumber

Old 10-19-08, 12:26 PM
  #126  
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Obama "revealed" that he has a progressive tax system, just like McCain.
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Old 10-19-08, 12:29 PM
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not so

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Obama "revealed" that he has a progressive tax system, just like McCain.

I disagee. McCain has no interest or policy on 'sharing the wealth' or redistrubution of wealth.
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Old 10-19-08, 12:31 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
Is it what Obama revealed that is pertinent here. aaargh!
He revealed that when consumers have more spending power, it helps businesses. Tax cuts for business aren't much good when there aren't any customers.

Seems to me like a pretty tame response to supply-side economics. I'm quaking in my boots!

Last edited by Nausicaa; 10-19-08 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-19-08, 12:33 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
I disagee. McCain has no interest or policy on 'sharing the wealth' or redistrubution of wealth.
Both McCain and Obama have a higher tax rate over $250,000. Obama's rate is just a few percentage points higher.
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Old 10-19-08, 12:37 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
The point that everyone ('cept for a few) overlook is that Obama is a Socialist.
If your definition of a socialist is someone who taxes the rich more than the poor, John McCain is also a socialist.
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Old 10-19-08, 12:38 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
I disagee. McCain has no interest or policy on 'sharing the wealth' or redistrubution of wealth.
I must have missed McCain's Flat Tax plan. Can you point me to it?
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Old 10-19-08, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
Good Lord. I don't care if Joe the Plumber is William Ayres himself! The point that everyone ('cept for a few) overlook is that Obama is a Socialist. Perhaps many on this forum aren't bother in the least by this fact but I am. Joe could be a ballerina for all I care. Who cares who he is? Is it what Obama revealed that is pertinent here. aaargh!
Perhaps the reason why people are talking about Joe in this thread is because this thread is entitled "Facts about Joe the plumber"

To clarify, what aspects of Obama's plans do you consider to be socialist?

Last edited by D.Pham4GLTE (>60GB); 10-19-08 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 10-19-08, 01:03 PM
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If you look at what was said, Obama stated he wanted to redistribute the wealth (I don't know the actual quote). McCain never has. So if you look at what the candidates have said, the sound bites, Obama looks like a socialist.

BUT, if you look at the actual policies, they're pretty much the same in terms of what they will do. They're both "socialist" () policies, but McCain is just staying silent on calling his what it actually is.
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Old 10-19-08, 01:34 PM
  #134  
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A progressive tax policy alone does not equate socialism. This country has had a progressive tax system for a long time (maybe from the beginning?), and I don't think it is anything close to "socialist," nor is it in any danger of becoming socialist, despite the rhetoric.
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Old 10-19-08, 01:52 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by solipsta View Post
If you look at what was said, Obama stated he wanted to redistribute the wealth (I don't know the actual quote). McCain never has. So if you look at what the candidates have said, the sound bites, Obama looks like a socialist.

BUT, if you look at the actual policies, they're pretty much the same in terms of what they will do. They're both "socialist" () policies, but McCain is just staying silent on calling his what it actually is.
All tax policies necessarily redistribute wealth. Period. We don't all get the same benefit from government expenditures, so the very fact that we have a government means wealth is being redistributed.
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Old 10-19-08, 10:34 PM
  #136  
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Dickering over the minute details of the differences of tax plans is distracting from the real problem Obama will cause. He wants to raise the capital gains rate from 15% to 28%. Even though he acknowledged (Democratic debate) the govt. would receive less revenues.
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Old 10-19-08, 11:00 PM
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Looks like Obama has created his own Joe The Plumber for robocalls. Here's the script:

"Hi, my name is Joe Martinez and I am a plumber for Denver, Colorado, calling for Barack Obama's campaign for change. During this week's debate, Barack Obama talked about cutting taxes for middle class families like mine, lowering the health care costs of everyone, and bringing the change we need in Washington. John McCain ignored the issues and used the debate to launch false attacks against Barack Obama. In fact, McCain for the third debate in the row didn't even say the words middle class. So take it from Joe the plumber. If you want a president who will put middle class families first, join me in voting for Barack Obama."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_135854.html
So will the press immediately start digging into ObamaJoe's tax returns, employment history and divorce records? I won't hold my breath.

Last edited by TheBigDave; 10-19-08 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 10-19-08, 11:32 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by JANK View Post
I disagee. McCain has no interest or policy on 'sharing the wealth' or redistrubution of wealth.
McCain will tax the rich more than the poor. Obama will tax the rich more than the poor. The difference is a matter of degree.

Right-wingers can get up in arms until they're blue in the face, but in the end, if Obama is guilty of it (assuming it's a bad thing, which it is not), then so is McCain. Period.
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Old 10-20-08, 12:47 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Looks like Obama has created his own Joe The Plumber for robocalls. Here's the script:



So will the press immediately start digging into ObamaJoe's tax returns, employment history and divorce records? I won't hold my breath.
I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that if/when they dig, they'll find the facts match the script.
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Old 10-20-08, 01:07 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Looks like Obama has created his own Joe The Plumber for robocalls. Here's the script:

So will the press immediately start digging into ObamaJoe's tax returns, employment history and divorce records? I won't hold my breath.
The press dug into these things for Joe the plumber? I don't know his divorce/tax return OR employment history. Link?

BTW, Joe the plumber is actually named Sam, isn't a plumber, and won't actually be paying more taxes under Obama's plan. The point is, the press tried to verify facts that McCain and/or his campaign have claimed to be true about Joe the plumber. These are the "facts" that they are using to show voters shouldn't pick Obama. If they are NOT facts, then I would think that would be important, no?

You seem so concerned about Joe Martinez the plumber, so please point out anything that he or the Democratic party has claimed about him that strikes you as possibly false.
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Old 10-20-08, 01:50 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
The press dug into these things for Joe the plumber? I don't know his divorce/tax return OR employment history. Link?
Here's a link from MSNBC looking into his business licenses and divorce records.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645/

And here they're looking into his tax records:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207217/

Originally Posted by hahn View Post
You seem so concerned about Joe Martinez the plumber, so please point out anything that he or the Democratic party has claimed about him that strikes you as possibly false.
It's not my job to vet Joe Martinez. If MSNBC looked into Joe Martinez as much as they looked into Joe Wurzelbacher, we might find some similar problems. But we all know they're not going to do that. He's an Obama supporter.

Originally Posted by hahn View Post
BTW, Joe the plumber is actually named Sam
BTW, for 37 years I've gone by the name Dave. It's my middle name. I didn't realize people were only allowed to use their first name. I guess the Obama Truth Squad is going to have me arrested.

Last edited by TheBigDave; 10-20-08 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:34 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Here's a link from MSNBC looking into his business licenses and divorce records.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645/

And here they're looking into his tax records:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27207217/



It's not my job to vet Joe Martinez. If MSNBC looked into Joe Martinez as much as they looked into Joe Wurzelbacher, we might find some similar problems. But we all know they're not going to do that. He's an Obama supporter.



BTW, for 37 years I've gone by the name Dave. It's my middle name. I didn't realize people were only allowed to use their first name. I guess the Obama Truth Squad is going to have me arrested.
oh for god's sake. this is really tiresome. I would hazard a guess that the very big difference is that Obama's people actually thought more than 2 seconds ahead and checked him out FIRST before going on national television and proclaiming him to be the paragon of American virtue about to be royally screwed over by a presidential candidate. The simple fact is that McCain, again, went off on this without thinking first and he's getting screwed for it. He chose to make joe the centerpiece of the debate...He is the one calling him a "good friend" and holding him up as a great example of "real America" and how they'll get screwed by obama's tax plan. That's McCain's fault...not Obama's.

This new guy was most certainly vetted x1000000 before he became a new toy for their campaign. So the reason you won't here about similar problems is because they probably don't exist...because Obama isn't a hothead who barrels ahead without thinking. If anything, these kinds of gaffes seem quite enlightening regarding McCain's lack of forethought and how he makes decisions willy nilly.
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Old 10-20-08, 03:36 AM
  #143  
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and no one would be looking at any of that Dave if Joe hadn't turned out to be a big fat liar AND cited by McCain as his great friend who is getting the shaft. YOu want to blame someone...blame McCain.
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Old 10-20-08, 04:05 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by brizz View Post
He is the one calling him a "good friend"
McCain has many "friends." You hear about them every day
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Old 10-20-08, 04:07 AM
  #145  
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Actually none of this would have gotten any attention if Obama hadn't used the phrase "spread the wealth". He didn't have a prepared script written by a speechwriter or a teleprompter to read from. He spoke off the cuff, ended up using an unpopular term, and screwed up. Neither McCain or Joe made him do that.

It was Obama's mistake. And here's how Team Obama's fixing it. First they try to destroy the character of Joe The Plumber. Then they create their own Joe The Plumber, hoping to confuse people.

Isn't this the kind of stuff people hated about Karl Rove?
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Old 10-20-08, 05:41 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Actually none of this would have gotten any attention if Obama hadn't used the phrase "spread the wealth".
If that's the case, why didn't McCain bring it up that phrase in the debate? That wasn't his point at all, that's a after-the-fact talking point from conservative talk radio and blogs. One that's been brought up repeatedly in this thread.
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Old 10-20-08, 06:18 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
If that's the case, why didn't McCain bring it up that phrase in the debate?
McCain brought up that phrase over and over again at the debate:

McCain: You know, when Sen. Obama ended up his conversation with Joe the plumber -- we need to spread the wealth around. In other words, we're going to take Joe's money, give it to Sen. Obama, and let him spread the wealth around.

I want Joe the plumber to spread that wealth around. You told him you wanted to spread the wealth around.

The whole premise behind Sen. Obama's plans are class warfare, let's spread the wealth around. I want small businesses -- and by the way, the small businesses that we're talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now.

Who -- why would you want to increase anybody's taxes right now? Why would you want to do that, anyone, anyone in America, when we have such a tough time, when these small business people, like Joe the plumber, are going to create jobs, unless you take that money from him and spread the wealth around.
McCain: The fact is that businesses in America today are paying the second highest tax rate of anywhere in the world. Our tax rate for business in America is 35 percent. Ireland, it's 11 percent.

Where are companies going to go where they can create jobs and where they can do best in business?

We need to cut the business tax rate in America. We need to encourage business.

Now, of all times in America, we need to cut people's taxes. We need to encourage business, create jobs, not spread the wealth around.
McCain: And of course, I've been talking about the economy. Of course, I've talked to people like Joe the plumber and tell him that I'm not going to spread his wealth around. I'm going to let him keep his wealth. And of course, we're talking about positive plan of action to restore this economy and restore jobs in America.
McCain: Hey, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, because what Joe wanted to do was buy the business that he's been working for 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week, and you said that you wanted to spread the wealth, but -- in other words, take Joe's money and then you decide what to do with it.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/...ipt/index.html
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Old 10-20-08, 09:38 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Actually none of this would have gotten any attention if Obama hadn't used the phrase "spread the wealth". He didn't have a prepared script written by a speechwriter or a teleprompter to read from. He spoke off the cuff, ended up using an unpopular term, and screwed up. Neither McCain or Joe made him do that.

It was Obama's mistake. And here's how Team Obama's fixing it. First they try to destroy the character of Joe The Plumber. Then they create their own Joe The Plumber, hoping to confuse people.

Isn't this the kind of stuff people hated about Karl Rove?
Yes, Obama's use of the phrase "spread the wealth" is what triggered it. But instead of standing on the merits of his own plan and attacking Obama's plan, McCain latched on to JtP and made him a central point of the debate. That isn't Obama's fault. That is McCain's. And if McCain was going to use JtP as such a central figure, he should've researched him, just a little, to find out the whole story.

McCain dragged JtP into the arena. It demonstrates once again McCain's lack of judgment and instability that makes him unfit to be president.

People hated Karl Rove because he orchestrated unfair character assassination against detractors. Everything that has been exposed about JtP is accurate. If JtP was actually who he implied himself to be, there would be no trashing of JtP. You let JtP off the hook without any personal accountability for what he said.
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Old 10-20-08, 10:13 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
It's not my job to vet Joe Martinez. If MSNBC looked into Joe Martinez as much as they looked into Joe Wurzelbacher, we might find some similar problems. But we all know they're not going to do that. He's an Obama supporter..
Problems with what? What claim did he make that you find to be suspicious?

Okay, let's say they DID look into his background. Let's say they found nothing. Would you believe them?

All that is COMPLETELY irrelevant. No one knows who the hell Joe Martinez is. I've only just heard about him from this thread. I don't really care about Joe Martinez. He's just another Obama supporter. Joe Wurzelwhatever is being pointed to by the McCain campaign as the reason for why you shouldn't vote for Obama. See the difference? Obviously you don't. I'd like to believe it's because you don't want to, rather than you can't.

Get over it already. No one gives a rat's ass about either Joe because they're irrelevant to this campaign. But if you insist on continuing to whine about it, carry on. This election is bringing out the true character of McCain's supporters.

Last edited by hahn; 10-20-08 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 10-20-08, 10:15 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Actually none of this would have gotten any attention if Obama hadn't used the phrase "spread the wealth". He didn't have a prepared script written by a speechwriter or a teleprompter to read from. He spoke off the cuff, ended up using an unpopular term, and screwed up. Neither McCain or Joe made him do that.

It was Obama's mistake. And here's how Team Obama's fixing it. First they try to destroy the character of Joe The Plumber. Then they create their own Joe The Plumber, hoping to confuse people.
I don't see anything wrong with saying "spread the wealth". Only the GOP is making a big deal out of it. So you're saying spreading the wealth is a BAD thing? So the good thing is that we should only have a few very rich people, and everyone else should be poor and struggle to make ends meet?
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