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Facts about Joe the plumber

Old 10-17-08, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I also don't like the rich to be overly taxed, since I fully intend to one day make a lot more money. I'd like to choose where that money goes and to what causes.
Sounds like conservative talk radio talking points.

I too hope to one day be able to make a million dollars a year in salary. And if I do, I'll have the clout to put the squeeze on politicians to make things beneficial for me. Until that day, and that day may never come, I'll push for what is right for me TODAY.

You're so compassionate for those who are very well off because you hope to one day be like them. But if you never get there, your compassion is all for nothing.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Obama loves to tout his experience as a Chicago politician. Under his time as a local Chicago politician, has the Chicago educational system improved, stayed the same, or gotten worse?
Unfair example. You should see the stupid kids in Chicago.

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
You're so compassionate for those who are very well off because you hope to one day be like them. But if you never get there, your compassion is all for nothing.
I have far more compassion for people who are not well off. That doesn't mean I feel they deserve tax cuts or stimulus checks. It means I write a check myself. Regarding the rich, It's not a question of compassion, it's a question of fairness. I don't know where the taxation line of "fair" falls, and neither do you. But I think that looking only after yourself is not the proper way to assess fairness.

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 10-17-08 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
yes. I thought Obama spoke down the man as if he was stupid and dismissed the man's concerns and shifted the focus of his answer to the concerns of other people.
I don't really see how Obama could have stated his plan differently. So how should Obama responded?

In contrast this would have been belittling reply "Hey Joe there is no way a person like you makes $250k or can ever dream of buying a plumbing business so you'll probably get a tax cut under my plan". Instead Obama took him at his word and answered in way consistent with his stated plan. If you don't like the plan fine but that doesn't mean he was insulting the guy. You stated Obama shifted the focus of his answers on the concerns of other when it clear to most people Obama is more concerned about the less than 250k crowd and that is what his plan is focused on.

If Joe would have been honest and said " Hey Obama I make 40k a year and hope to one day buy a business. I don't believe your plan will help me and will in fact cost me more". If would have explained why his plan doesn't effect the 40k people.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Baron Of Hell View Post
I don't really see how Obama could have stated his plan differently. So how should Obama responded?
"It's a black thing y'all can't understand."
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Old 10-17-08, 11:57 AM
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My plumbers first name is Vinnie. Because of this, we call him "Vinnie the plumber"

.. he has a full head of hair and is licensed.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I have far more compassion for people who are not well off. That doesn't mean I feel they deserve tax cuts or stimulus checks. It means I write a check myself. Regarding the rich, It's not a question of compassion, it's a question of fairness. I don't know where the taxation line of "fair" falls, and neither do you. But I think that looking only after yourself is not the proper way to assess fairness.
Fine, "fairness" instead of "compassion". YOU are the one that used your personal situation/goals to assess fairness. Because you hope to be wealthy one day, you think it is fair to not raise their taxes.
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Old 10-17-08, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
But instead of taking money from the successful and giving money to the poor, i'd rather see that money be used on tools that will help the poor help themselves. If we want to take that money and improve our educational systems, then I'd support that. If we want to take that money and just hand it over to the less successful because it's not "fair" that rich people have lots of money, then I just don't support that.
That's not how Obama's plan works. He doesn't take Joe's money and hand it over to Jane the Welfare Mama. Under Obama's plan (as in McCain's plan) Joe just pays a higher percentage for income over $250,000.
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Old 10-17-08, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Fine, "fairness" instead of "compassion". YOU are the one that used your personal situation/goals to assess fairness. Because you hope to be wealthy one day, you think it is fair to not raise their taxes.
What are you talking about? You are the one that said you are doing what is best for yourself NOW and would do something different for yourself if you made a million bucks, leveraging your wealth to lobby your interests. So the old you would be working against the new you.

I'm looking at this in more of a yin/yang circle of life one with the taxation universe perspective, where fair is fair, and we try to reach fairness both for people in your situation as well as people in the "potentially more wealthy future you" situation.
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Old 10-17-08, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I'm looking at this in more of a yin/yang circle of life one with the taxation universe perspective, where fair is fair, and we try to reach fairness both for people in your situation as well as people in the potintially more wealthy future you.
Bottom line for me is that this whole "I don't want to see the wealthy pay more taxes because I hope to be wealthy one day" argument is silly bordering on the nonsensical. Plain and simple.
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Old 10-17-08, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Bottom line for me is that this whole "I don't want to see the wealthy pay more taxes because I hope to be wealthy one day" argument is silly bordering on the nonsensical. Plain and simple.
I don't want to see the wealthy pay an unfair amount of taxes. That doesn't mean I don't want them to pay "more" taxes. I said I don't know where that line is. I just think we need to be more cautious spending other people's money. It's easy to talk about new programs when you don't pay a price for funding them. My point is, I would hope to be in the bracket that more greatly funds these programs some day, and that makes me consider the programs with a closer eye than those who simply think it won't hurt the rich to give a little more, a little more...

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 10-17-08 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 10-17-08, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Bottom line for me is that this whole "I don't want to see the wealthy pay more taxes because I hope to be wealthy one day" argument is silly bordering on the nonsensical. Plain and simple.
equally silly as the "i'm jealous of the wealthy and as such, want to see more of their money taken away."
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Old 10-17-08, 01:07 PM
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That example actually helps me out a lot. I don't see why Obama wants Joe to pay for his strippers.
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Old 10-17-08, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I don't want to see the wealthy pay an unfair amount of taxes. That doesn't mean I don't want them to pay "more" taxes. I said I don't know where that line is. I just think we need to be more cautious spending other people's money. It's easy to talk about new programs when you don't pay a price for funding them. My point is, I would hope to be in the bracket that more greatly funds these programs some day, and that makes me consider the programs with a closer eye than those who simply think it won't hurt the rich to give a little more, a little more...

There is a long tradition in this country of folks not giving a rat's ass about higher taxes so long as those same folks don't have any of their own taxes raised. Soaking the rich and sin taxes are perfect examples.
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Old 10-17-08, 01:18 PM
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Does anybody remember Zeke the Plumber?



http://zeketheplumber.ytmnd.com/
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Old 10-17-08, 01:25 PM
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McCain should have used "Larry the Cable Guy" - his taxes are going up.
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Old 10-17-08, 01:59 PM
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It comes down to is this......SOMEBODY is going to have to pay more taxes. It's either going to have to be the wealthy or the poor/middle class. Washington simply can't continue debt spending. We still haven't answered how we will pay for Iraq!

I think it's perfectly fair for the wealthy to pay more taxes, and I'd feel the same way even if I was wealthy and it affected me. The U.S. currently has one of the most favorable (if not "thee" most favorable) tax policies for wealthy taxpayers amongst developed nations. The wealthy also benefitted the most from Bush's tax cuts. (please don't ask me to go look this up. look it up yourself.....it's easy to find) In addition, they also have the <i> ability</i> to pay....which is important. We've already seen what happens to the poor/middle class when something as simple as gas prices and food prices begin to increase. We've also seen the number of bankruptcies and the balances on credit cards rise dramatically this year, albeit, some may be due to layoffs and housing foreclosures......which in themselves create much stress amongst these classes. What it comes down to is this......it's much easier to pay 35-45% in taxes on the second $250K earned, as compared to 25-30% on the first $250K. And again, I think it's perfectly fair.

Last edited by wabio; 10-17-08 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 10-17-08, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by wabio View Post
It comes down to is this......SOMEBODY is going to have to pay more taxes.
That might be your belief, but I would disagree. This country already has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. You say we have one of the most favorable tax policies for wealthy. I don't know if I believe that, but if so it is probably because we are a country that believes in free capitalism, or at least we used to be. Everyone else in this country is cutting back, why can't the gov't make some significant spending cuts? In a time that screams the gov't spends far too much money they don't have, the last thing we need is more massive programs and new spending.

Last edited by taa455; 10-17-08 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 10-17-08, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by taa455 View Post
Everyone else in this country is cutting back, why can't the gov't make some significant spending cuts? In a time that screams the gov't spends far too much money they don't have, the last thing we need is more massive programs and new spending.
You're right. They should cut back on spending......but they won't. At the very best, they will maintain the status quo.....which is way too much for their current income to cover (and this is not even counting Iraq).

I'm now convinced neither party will do much to decrease spending. I mean seriously.....if the "smaller federal gov't" conservatives wouldn't do it over the past 8 years, do we really expect the "tax and spend" democrats to do it? Maybe Obama will surprise me, but I wouldn't bet on it. Therefore, SOMEBODY is going to have to pay more taxes.
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Old 10-17-08, 02:36 PM
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Yeah, like our grandchildren.
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Old 10-17-08, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
What's even funnier is that McCain and his supporters here acting like McCain doesn't support progressive taxation.

If McCain's plan called for a flat tax, I think there would be a really good point to be made here. But as it stands, it's just hypocrisy.
No. A flat tax still means redistribution of wealth. Theoretically, progressive taxation could even mean less redistribution than flat taxation. I'm all for flat taxes by the way.
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Old 10-17-08, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
equally silly as the "i'm jealous of the wealthy and as such, want to see more of their money taken away."
That's a ridiculous claim. Our family tax rate will go up from 36 to 39% on anything over $250K. I'm not envious of anyone yet I don't see the big deal in paying a small amount more than I did last year. This country is a mess, someone's gotta dig it out.
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Old 10-17-08, 04:03 PM
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Did Joe the Plumber dodge the draft?

E
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Old 10-17-08, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
That's a ridiculous claim. Our family tax rate will go up from 36 to 39% on anything over $250K. I'm not envious of anyone yet I don't see the big deal in paying a small amount more than I did last year. This country is a mess, someone's gotta dig it out.
That's very patriotic of you. Too bad you don't like flags in your yard.
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Old 10-17-08, 04:30 PM
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I'd like to know where it is that plumbers make $120 an hour take home.
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Old 10-17-08, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FlickMan View Post
My plumbers first name is Vinnie. Because of this, we call him "Vinnie the plumber"

.. he has a full head of hair and is licensed.
I thought we agreed that we weren't going to make this information public.
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