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Facts about Joe the plumber

Old 10-17-08, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Hypothetical:

Suppose some 45 year old woman approaches John McCain and asks him why he thinks her 20 year old son should be asked to fight in a war in the Persian Gulf. Suppose McCain's response seems condescending and dismissive of this woman's concerns. Suppose later on, it is discovered that the woman doesn't even have a 20 year old son. Should that matter?

Oh I think we know the answer to that.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
It's comical to see everyone up in arms over this "redistribution" of $900 of Joe's money.
What's even funnier is that McCain and his supporters here acting like McCain doesn't support progressive taxation.

If McCain's plan called for a flat tax, I think there would be a really good point to be made here. But as it stands, it's just hypocrisy.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Hypothetical:

Suppose some 45 year old woman approaches John McCain and asks him why he thinks her 20 year old son should be asked to fight in a war in the Persian Gulf. Suppose McCain's response seems condescending and dismissive of this woman's concerns. Suppose later on, it is discovered that the woman doesn't even have a 20 year old son. Should that matter?
She going to look like an idiot when the media finds that out. It probably shouldn't matter, but in our society it will matter. The Iraq hypothetical (or the tax hypothetical) is a constant in the election debate. The new and interesting thing that just appeared was the woman in your scenario (or Joe the Plumber). Since the new and interesting variable has more to it than a simple 60 sec blab session, it becomes of interest to the curious and the media.

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Old 10-17-08, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
Oh I think we know the answer to that.
Given what happened when a woman who had a child killed in Iraq dared question the point of the war, I can only imagine that in such a case your hypothetical woman would probably be hanged at dawn.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:21 AM
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Cindy Sheehan did a lot more than question the point of the war. And she's running for office (how's that going, any way?)
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Old 10-17-08, 09:25 AM
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In the 2 minute clip that CRM114 posted, it looks like Obama answers the man's question pretty fairly.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
so what?

Did Obama know this guy was full of shit when he spoke to him? Obama, at the time, had no reason to doubt this man and had no reason to lie to him. The story isn't Joe the Plumber. The story is Obama's response to Joe the Plumber, that wealth redistribution is something he supports.
Please. You make it sound like redistribution of wealth is something that doesn't happen in America. Newsflash... it has been happening for a long time. And the greatest single redistribution of wealth just happened 2 weeks ago with the bailout.

The story of Obama's response would NOT be a story if "Joe the plumber" didn't falsely present himself as being affected by Obama's tax proposal. Using a ficticious example to criticize Obama's plan is pretty weak. Why not use a real one? Joe the plumber wasn't a real example.

The fact that McCain chose to focus so much on Joe the plumber without the proper fact checking is an example of his recklessness. And is consistent with the recklessness he demonstrated with his VP choice. It is a pattern of recklessness that I find alarming.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:59 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Because he made up a story in front of cameras to make Obama look like a fool. It backfired.
This.

Joe went right in front of the cameras and told some lies to make Obama look bad. Naturally, this is going to get a lot of airtime (and Joe certainly should have known this). When this becomes a big story, people are naturally going to look into Joe's claims.

He brought it on himself.
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Old 10-17-08, 09:59 AM
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I think there is a misconception that a small business with $250,000.01 in revenues will be paying a lot more taxes than a small business with $249,999.99 in revenues. I think Obama did a good job explaining that in JTP's "hypothetical" situation, all his revenue wouldn't be taxed at a higher rate, just the revenue above $250K.

But I think he definitely could have done without the attitude that the successful people in this country should be forced to give the unsuccessful people a cut of the pie. I don't necessarily agree with a progressive income tax, but I don't equate it with socialism, either. I think Obama's "spread the wealth around" bit sounds way too socialist to me.

I don't mind if the progressive tax rate goes shifts up or down, but I do mind when it gets steeper.
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Old 10-17-08, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
But I think he definitely could have done without the attitude that the successful people in this country should be forced to give the unsuccessful people a cut of the pie.
This is no different than the current tax scheme -- the rich pay more.

Obama is simply saying he wants to cut taxes for the poor and middle class. And to do that, he's going to have to raise taxes on the upper class.

And I think he is correct, that if the poor and middle class have more money, they'll spend it in the upper class' businesses. The poor certainly won't save it, history has shown us this. In the end, more money for the poor will mean more revenues for the rich.
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Old 10-17-08, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mbs View Post
This.

Joe went right in front of the cameras and told some lies to make Obama look bad. Naturally, this is going to get a lot of airtime (and Joe certainly should have known this). When this becomes a big story, people are naturally going to look into Joe's claims.

He brought it on himself.
Even worse is that "Joe" made the conservative media tour the day of the debate and even more with the national press the day after. He stuck to his made up story in these interviews.

So I think he has asked for what he is getting.

Classic thing is that "if we beleive" the two tax plans - is he actually would get a tax cut from Obama's - LOL!!!!
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Old 10-17-08, 10:24 AM
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Yeah - Joe is one of those 95% of Americans who is going to get an Obama tax cut.
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Old 10-17-08, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Yeah - Joe is one of those 95% of Americans who is going to get an Obama tax cut.
Joe doesn't pay taxes at all so no tax cut for him. Maybe he'll get a audit instead.
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Old 10-17-08, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Hypothetical:

Suppose some 45 year old woman approaches John McCain and asks him why he thinks her 20 year old son should be asked to fight in a war in the Persian Gulf. Suppose McCain's response seems condescending and dismissive of this woman's concerns. Suppose later on, it is discovered that the woman doesn't even have a 20 year old son. Should that matter?
Do you think Obama's reply to JTP was "condescending and dismissive?"
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Old 10-17-08, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Do you think Obama's reply to JTP was "condescending and dismissive?"
yes. I thought Obama spoke down the man as if he was stupid and dismissed the man's concerns and shifted the focus of his answer to the concerns of other people.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
yes. I thought Obama spoke down the man as if he was stupid and dismissed the man's concerns and shifted the focus of his answer to the concerns of other people.
I disagree with you.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:19 AM
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yes. I thought Obama spoke down the man as if he was stupid and dismissed the man's concerns and shifted the focus of his answer to the concerns of other people.

I disagree as well
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Old 10-17-08, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Do you think Obama's reply to JTP was "condescending and dismissive?"
You mean "elitist."
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Old 10-17-08, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Yeah - Joe is one of those 95% of Americans who is going to get an Obama tax cut.
I call bullshit on that number -- approximately 30% of Americans don't have to pay taxes today -- Obama's going to have to create a negative tax-rate to give cuts to 95% of Americans.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Do you think Obama's reply to JTP was "condescending and dismissive?"
Not as much as Biden saying that paying taxes is patriotic, but yeah.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
so what?

Did Obama know this guy was full of shit when he spoke to him? Obama, at the time, had no reason to doubt this man and had no reason to lie to him. The story isn't Joe the Plumber. The story is Obama's response to Joe the Plumber, that wealth redistribution is something he supports.
And you don't? Has there ever been a normally functioning society that balanced the budet with just a lump sum tax?

Obama's response meant nothing new or noteworthy. It was already known that he wants to cut taxes for lower incomes and increase taxes for incomes higher than 250,000. It just the wording that makes it possible to attack him.

Obama is for wealth redistribution, just as McCain is, and just as Bush is. Obama is to a larger extent, but that was alreay known before talking to Joe the Plumber.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_vdH View Post
Obama is for wealth redistribution, just as McCain is, and just as Bush is. Obama is to a larger extent, but that was alreay known before talking to Joe the Plumber.
Thank you!
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Old 10-17-08, 11:32 AM
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I didn't know about this guy until now... at first i feel for him, the whole she bang about taxing/punishing "being successful." But then, we're talking about $250,000 annually. So, yeah, give me that "success" and i'll gladly pay the higher taxes.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:36 AM
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I will agree that it's blown out of proportion, the difference between $249K and $251K in taxation by Obama's plan. There is a mental barrier there, and people often stumble on it when it comes to tax brackets of today as well. I will confess to the same brain fart on occasion.

I'm starting to come around to Obama's plan not being the end of the world. I'm still not a fan of giving the government a bigger hand in health care. But I certainly understand why there is a push for it. As for taxing the rich further to pay for these things... well, I'm not a fan. But I'm also not an economist.

The immediate impact to me will likely be negligible, but I worry more about the long-term consequences to the country. I will confess to not being educated enough on drastically increasing the amount of government-run health care to say definitively that it's a bad idea. But it sure seems like one, at least with this particular government.

I also don't like the rich to be overly taxed, since I fully intend to one day make a lot more money. I'd like to choose where that money goes and to what causes.

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 10-17-08 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 10-17-08, 11:46 AM
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I think that the economy will be better off as a whole when the poor and lower-middle class have more purchase power. But instead of taking money from the successful and giving money to the poor, i'd rather see that money be used on tools that will help the poor help themselves. If we want to take that money and improve our educational systems, then I'd support that. If we want to take that money and just hand it over to the less successful because it's not "fair" that rich people have lots of money, then I just don't support that.


Obama loves to tout his experience as a Chicago politician. Under his time as a local Chicago politician, has the Chicago educational system improved, stayed the same, or gotten worse?
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