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I have questions on the Obama citizenship "issue."

Old 10-13-08, 02:36 PM
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I have questions on the Obama citizenship "issue."

I thought this was a dead issue, but someone forwarded me a little clip on the Berg v Obama case and I googled it. Berg was a lifelong Democrat (still is), he was a Hillary supporter, he was the Attny General of Penn. Here is a copy of the case http://dockets.justia.com/docket/cou...ase_id-281573/

Here's the little youtube deal with Berg
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xyspCRmJv7w&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xyspCRmJv7w&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Okay, this does seem out there. But I do get hit with the stupidity of how simple it would be for Obama to clear it up. At issue is the releasing of a birth certificate and college records.

Here are the questions.....didn't Obama have to prove his citizenship when he ran for the Senate, and wouldn't those documents be public record?

Why would Obama not just shut this up by releasing his documents?

I don't like conspiracy crap, and this feels like it. But I think what gets me is the unlikely opponent in Berg. If this were brought by Sean Hannity, I'd forget it quickly. I have a hard time believing there is a big cover up, but I also have a hard time understanding why Obama doesn't just release all his stuff. If it isn't true, you just release it all. But if it is, I can't imagine anyone thinks this will end with the election (if they stall the courts past the election).

Hell, from the DNC point of view, I think they could still put Hillary in and still win.

So, I'm looking for reasoned analysis from you guys, which seems oxymoronical. The few places I have looked show that Obama pasted a copy of his birth certificate on his website, but some places say it was authentic, and some say it was bogus. So why not just tell Hawaii to release a copy to the courts?

Also I could not back up the Indonesia thing where Obama had to be a citizen there to go to school, etc. Anyone know anything about that?
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Old 10-13-08, 02:50 PM
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http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

Found this in about 15 seconds.
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Old 10-13-08, 02:50 PM
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Senator Obama did have the state of Hawaii release his birth certificate. Of course, the nuts immediately began arguing that it was a forgery. Berg is a nut, too. I read his response to the motion to dismiss his complaint. He relies on "evidence" like the fact that Senator Obama's English wikipedia page says he was born in one hospital in Hawaii, while his Italian wikipedia page says he was born in a different hospital in Hawaii.
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Old 10-13-08, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Senator Obama did have the state of Hawaii release his birth certificate. Of course, the nuts immediately began arguing that it was a forgery. Berg is a nut, too. I read his response to the motion to dismiss his complaint. He relies on "evidence" like the fact that Senator Obama's English wikipedia page says he was born in one hospital in Hawaii, while his Italian wikipedia page says he was born in a different hospital in Hawaii.
I can't believe there are 2 hospitals in Hawaii.
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Old 10-13-08, 02:56 PM
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama...ertificate.asp
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Old 10-13-08, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
... Berg was a lifelong Democrat (still is), he was a Hillary supporter...

... But I think what gets me is the unlikely opponent in Berg....

...Hell, from the DNC point of view, I think they could still put Hillary in and still win....
Seems like you answered part of your own question.
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Old 10-13-08, 02:58 PM
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So is Berg just pissed that Hillary lost?
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Old 10-13-08, 03:00 PM
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I don't know enough about the man. I suppose it's possible. Maybe he is a fighter for truth, maybe he hates Obama, maybe he want's to secure a book deal?
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Old 10-13-08, 03:02 PM
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Then I would also ask, why keep trying to put off the suit rather than just get your guys in, win and put the issue to rest? I suppose you might have some that say the judge was in on it, but it seems like one could produce everything in court and be done.

Anyone know anything about the Harvard records and why they aren't being released?
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Old 10-13-08, 03:05 PM
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Document images via Factcheck, including a birth announcement!
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Old 10-13-08, 03:07 PM
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Seems like most politicians try to keep any lawsuit out of court, to avoid the connection in mainstream I suppose. I haven't followed this story enough to know much about it. I'm sure it will get a push in the next few weeks.
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Old 10-13-08, 03:15 PM
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You might as well ask why President Bush doesn't release the documents that prove he's not beaming mind-control signals to people's dental fillings. No matter what proof is brought into Court, it won't be enough for the kinds of people who would care about a lawsuit like this in the first place.
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Old 10-13-08, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
You might as well ask why President Bush doesn't release the documents that prove he's not beaming mind-control signals to people's dental fillings. No matter what proof is brought into Court, it won't be enough for the kinds of people who would care about a lawsuit like this in the first place.
Not very good comparison. They are asking for documents to be released that do exist, you are asking for documents that (presumably) don't exist.

wishbone - I saw that, but sopposedly that website is owned by someone who was suspect, or something. It was in the youtube video.

I understand that Hawaii is not an open document state, but they should be able to at least confirm that they have a birth certificate, can't they?

It would be hard for me to believe that some conspiracy would be so bold as to claim that Hawaii was in on it.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
Document images via Factcheck, including a birth announcement!
FactCheck.org is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation.

http://www.factcheck.org/about/

The Annenberg Foundation was also a primary funder of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago...berg_Challenge

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge was co-founded by William Ayers (yes, that William Ayers) and in 1995, selected Barack Obama (yes, THAT Barack Obama) to be the chairman of the Board of Directors.

Sorry, FactCheck.org is just a little too close to the source to be considered valid and unbiased.

Besides, this lawsuit would be easily dismissed by the submission of Obama's birth certificate and any paperwork proving that his mother or step-father did not change his citizenship when he went to Indonesia. The fact that they filed for a dismissal seems to bolster the case.

Last edited by darkflounder; 10-13-08 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:10 PM
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It's all a GIANT CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!one1111!!!!
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Old 10-13-08, 04:13 PM
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Dave, a wise man <a href="http://forum.dvdtalk.com/8338614-post1.html">once said</a>:

"One of the hardest things to do is to refute conspiracy theories. Generally conspiracy theories aren’t built upon evidence or solid fact. And then the lack of actual data is used as further proof to show just how deep the conspiracy runs."

I think you need to keep that in mind.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:17 PM
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I think The Bus is in on it! Who knows how deep this goes?!?
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Old 10-13-08, 04:19 PM
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The birth announcement was tracked down by Lori Starfelt, the producer of a documentary that PUMA is working on. READ the comments below for in-depth explanations from Lori about the announcement.
18 Lori on July 22, 2008 at 9:36 pm

Hi, Iíve talked to the Department of Vital Records and the Honolulu Advertiser.In 1961, the hospitals would take their new birth certificates to Vital Records. At the end of the week, Vital Records would post a sheet that for the news paper to pick up that contained births, deaths, marriages and divorces. The Advertiser routinely printed this information in their Sunday edition. This is not a paid announcement that his grandmother could arrange. This is information that comes from Vital Records - we know this because this particular section reflects those records. They didnít have a provision for paid, one sentence announcement that would be included in the Vital Records. At the time, if a child was born outside a hospital, the family would have 30 days to apply for a birth certificate and Vital Records would expect to see prenatal care records, or pediatrician records of the first check up, etc. Theyíd also want the notarized statement from the mid-wife. Of course, they can apply later but that would noted as a different kind of birth certificate. I think TD has already addressed that. This information was received by Vital Records the first week of his birth = that suggests the hospital.

Next, the announcement is from Sunday, August 13th and Obama was born on Friday, August 4th. Hospitals usually donít take birth certificate information the first couple days to avoid changes. So it was likely filled out on the 4th or so, as hospital stays were usually 3 - 5 days at the time. Lastly, having worked in a newborn nursery in college, hospitals donít ask for documentation. If mom says sheís married, thatís what they write. They have no authority to question her statement.

In Honolulu at the time, paid birth announcements werenít in vogue. Frequently families would post one year announcements that included pictures from the party, etc. I havenít checked to see if that exists.

I hope that finishes clearing this up.
Since Sen Obama's mother was a US citizen then I would think that that alone should entitle him to US citizenship but we as a nation practice a modified form of jus soli (birthright citizenship).
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Old 10-13-08, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
In 1961 "African" was a race?

If there was any truth to the rumor that Obama is not a US citizen you can be certain that Hillary would have dug it up long ago. Case closed.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Not very good comparison. They are asking for documents to be released that do exist, you are asking for documents that (presumably) don't exist.

wishbone - I saw that, but sopposedly that website is owned by someone who was suspect, or something. It was in the youtube video.

I understand that Hawaii is not an open document state, but they should be able to at least confirm that they have a birth certificate, can't they?

It would be hard for me to believe that some conspiracy would be so bold as to claim that Hawaii was in on it.
If only the Obama campaign would release his birth certificate, and if only Groucho would link to that in the very first reply in this thread.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
Dave, a wise man <a href="http://forum.dvdtalk.com/8338614-post1.html">once said</a>:

"One of the hardest things to do is to refute conspiracy theories. Generally conspiracy theories arenít built upon evidence or solid fact. And then the lack of actual data is used as further proof to show just how deep the conspiracy runs."

I think you need to keep that in mind.

And I believe that. It just seems to me (one who is not into conspiracies) as a pretty easy one to refute and take care of. I guess I just don't understand the resistance from Obama, though maybe it is as simple as not wanting to fuel the fire. The Harvard records are of a lot more interest to me thatn the birth certificate.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:35 PM
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The reason you thought there might be some actual truth to this is because your assumption of his Berg's bias also assumes that he would not say something negative about a Democrat unless it was true.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
If only the Obama campaign would release his birth certificate, and if only Groucho would link to that in the very first reply in this thread.

I am not refuting the birth certificate, though others are. I don't believe this conspiracy. I am wondering why Obama wouldn't allow some news organization to get his certificate, or why he wouldn't tell Hawaii to let it out. I am also wondering why he wouldn't release his school records.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn View Post
The reason you thought there might be some actual truth to this is because your assumption of his Berg's bias also assumes that he would not say something negative about a Democrat unless it was true.

Yeah, that is very true. He seems credible (on the surface) because he is a lifetime Democrat and I can't see him wanting to do something that would get McCain elected. I would think he would see that Hillary getting in now would have a far worse chance (though still viable) than Obama at this point. Mainly because of the "scandal" involved and the black eye to the DNC.
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Old 10-13-08, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pistol Pete View Post
In 1961 "African" was a race?

If there was any truth to the rumor that Obama is not a US citizen you can be certain that Hillary would have dug it up long ago. Case closed.
I think that as well. I think someone at harvard or Hawaii who was a supporter of hers would leak the info if it was that damning.
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