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Is The Economy Going To Hell In A Handbasket? - Pt III

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Is The Economy Going To Hell In A Handbasket? - Pt III

Old 08-01-08, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Why would your encourage your kids to attend college if they "have no clue" what they want to do? Seems like a waste of time and money.
At 18 my kids will be given two choices: college or military. I will raise them to be prepared to be adults when they graduate from high school. Also, I will encourage them to choose a field they like *IF* they're willing to invest many years working towards that goal. 4 years and done doesn't work for a lot of degrees.

A business major is pretty "catch all" for all industries so I think it's a safe B.S. degree and if you want to narrow the field from there, I think it is at least a good base to start with.

Sorry wishbon3 - that means you're at least the third history major that I like!
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Old 08-01-08, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
soon the US will be like India, we will need a master's degree just to work as customer service people in a call center
And how much of that is because we've dumbed down our children? Kids graduate from HS without being able to read these days. Are we surprised that a 4 yr degree doesn't mean the same as it used to? Compare it to the mortgage crisis. The more students you accept - the more money the university brings in.
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Old 08-01-08, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mosquitobite
And how much of that is because we've dumbed down our children? Kids graduate from HS without being able to read these days. Are we surprised that a 4 yr degree doesn't mean the same as it used to? Compare it to the mortgage crisis. The more students you accept - the more money the university brings in.
Maybe the problem is that we are pushing everyone and their brother into going into massive debt to get a college degree?
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Old 08-01-08, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush18
Maybe the problem is that we are pushing everyone and their brother into going into massive debt to get a college degree?

Well it's usually either debt for diploma.....or else sell used cars, construction, or Walmart.
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Old 08-01-08, 05:09 PM
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I wonder how many jobs we will lose by the end of the year?
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Old 08-01-08, 05:52 PM
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I haven't seen this posted yet. Thought it might lend a little perspective to our current situation. This is how much the financial institutions are borrowing to try and get themselves out of the hole they dug for themselves:


And unfortunately, bad news for the banks is bad news for the economy. I wonder how high this number can go before there's a complete collapse of the U.S. dollar.

Last edited by hahn; 08-01-08 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 08-01-08, 06:08 PM
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Dammit. I'm converting to Euros!
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Old 08-01-08, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Very cute.

I don't know though of any country which would stand idle while its banking system collapses.

The government will always be the lender of last resource.
Um, sometimes the government doesn't have the power to fix things. Especially when spending by the American consumer (edit: AND the American government) has been out of control for the past decade.

Last edited by hahn; 08-01-08 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-01-08, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn
Um, sometimes the government doesn't have the power to fix things. Especially when spending by the American consumer has been out of control for the past decade.
Massive out of control spending by the American citizen which easily a molehill when compared to the spending of the US government.

Bankers pulled a con game, damn near took the economy under, ruined so many lives, and are getting away with it. In fact they are getting bailed out for their crimes.

"Nothing is more common than for great thieves to ride in triumph when small ones are punished." - Seneca

"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." - Aesop

"One of the Seven [wise men of Greece] was wont to say: That laws were like cobwebs, where the small flies are caught and the great break through." - Sir Francis Bacon
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Old 08-01-08, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
Massive out of control spending by the American citizen which easily a molehill when compared to the spending of the US government.

Bankers pulled a con game, damn near took the economy under, ruined so many lives, and are getting away with it. In fact they are getting bailed out for their crimes.
There's going to be payback for this bailout. I seriously wonder about the possibility of a complete U.S. monetary collapse. The more I read about it online, the more I think it's a very real possibility.
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Old 08-03-08, 06:03 PM
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I like the idea this op-ed has about encouraging saving and cutting dependence on foreign investors by making bonds very easy for Americans to buy. Imagine buying bonds at the convenience store, imagine having the option to get your tax refund in bonds, etc.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/30/pf/b...ion=2008080105

Other news: eighth bank failure is Florida First Priority bank, branches to re-open as SunTrust.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/01/news...ion=2008080120
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Old 08-03-08, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
Massive out of control spending by the American citizen which easily a molehill when compared to the spending of the US government.

Bankers pulled a con game, damn near took the economy under, ruined so many lives, and are getting away with it. In fact they are getting bailed out for their crimes.
Totally agree. This is why the "Free Market System" is impossible if left free to do as it pleases. People forget how new and infantile our economy really is. Our economy was based on TRUST. Merchants had morals and ethics, and extreme shady dealings were very rare, and the merchant was dealt with appropriately.

It's clearly apparent we have a current business model in America where lying and cheating is the status quo, and the US Gov't is afraid to take down such corporate empires because the corporations are holding the US economy hostage.

And to add to this, we have corrupt government politicians accepting bribes for favorable legislation to protect businesses and pro-flourish laws to allow business to scorch and burn our nation.

Do I have to say this again, people. Do not fear your government. Fear the corporation. A corporation can dictate a government's policy if left alone and left to grow unmonitored. And this is what we are seeing today. We've let corporations get so big and powerful, the US Government is incapable of dealing with them appropriately without rendering the ecnonomy a moment in history books.

Originally Posted by hahn
There's going to be payback for this bailout. I seriously wonder about the possibility of a complete U.S. monetary collapse. The more I read about it online, the more I think it's a very real possibility.
Well, the only reason I doubt this will happen is because the government will never let you know it will, and we will be looking at a complete disinformation campaign. For example, you'll see higher employment numbers when they don't exist. You'll see higher wage increase numbers...when they don't exist.

Technically speaking, the economy we have is so large, no one would ever know it's bankrupt because each sector is too busy trying to cover it's own financial ass. And they don't really care about the other sectors anyway.

As far as we know, the US Government could be bankrupt right now. The money you spend right now could be worthless. The only reason it's not...is because the government says it is not.

Of course, we start seeing $1,000,000 dollar bills being printed, I'd say we are fucked for sure.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 08-03-08 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 08-03-08, 07:07 PM
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"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our selection between economy and liberty or profusion and servitude. If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat in our drink, in our necessities and comforts, in our labors and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, our people must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live. We have not time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account, but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow suffers. Our landholders, too retaining indeed the title and stewardship of estates called theirs, but held really in trust for the treasury, must be contented with penury, obscurity and exile. Private fortunes are destroyed by public as well as by private extravagance. This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering. And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in it's train wretchedness and oppression." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Old 08-03-08, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Do I have to say this again, people. Do not fear your government. Fear the corporation. A corporation can dictate a government's policy if left alone and left to grow unmonitored. And this is what we are seeing today. We've let corporations get so big and powerful, the US Government is incapable of dealing with them appropriately without rendering the ecnonomy a moment in history books.
You should fear the government, but in the context of your point I follow you.

You left out banks. This was the primary fear of the Founding Fathers, and many wise men since then. The corporations come AFTER the bank's control.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." - James Madison

"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question it's methods or throw light upon it's crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.. corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." - Abraham Lincoln

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson (We did this in 1913, the small group of bankers that controls our currency is NOT a part of the US government, not under the authority of the President or the Congress, they are known as "The Fed")

"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no
longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." - President Woodrow Wilson (The resident who created 'The Fed' in 1913 reflecting on what he and the Congress had done)

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation." - John Adams (This is FAR more true today than it was then)

"We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." -Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
The simplest and most correct understanding of our economy is this: the moment we went away from a currency backed by precious metals to one controlled by banks, we were done for as a nation.

This is why the Founding Fathers specified a precious metals backed currency. They knew what would happen if it was undone. Well in fact they specifically described where we are today, and where we are about to be in the near future. The warning from Jefferson in the quotes above is dead on.

It took 4 strikes(4 attempts at central banks, Fed is the fourth), and we were out.

It amazes me that so few people understand that. More than any other group the 'financial experts' understand the least about an economy. They actually think the stock market has anything to do with the economy.
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Old 08-03-08, 07:49 PM
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I know one way we can save more: make savings and interesting-bearing checking deposits at banks completely exempt from income tax (local, state and Federal) on the interest income. I'll guarantee that banks would see their deposit rates zoom through the roof in rapid succession.

I do think within 10-15 years we could see the US dollar pegged to the price of precious metal again.
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Old 08-03-08, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
The simplest and most correct understanding of our economy is this: the moment we went away from a currency backed by precious metals to one controlled by banks, we were done for as a nation.

This is why the Founding Fathers specified a precious metals backed currency. They knew what would happen if it was undone. Well in fact they specifically described where we are today, and where we are about to be in the near future. The warning from Jefferson in the quotes above is dead on.

It took 4 strikes(4 attempts at central banks, Fed is the fourth), and we were out.

It amazes me that so few people understand that. More than any other group the 'financial experts' understand the least about an economy. They actually think the stock market has anything to do with the economy.
Well, as you know, the stock market is the psychological side, a window if you will, to the US and world psychological state for that particular day.

I'm not sure backing the US Dollar with gold and silver will help the situation in the future. The problem, is we have large institutions who were able to loan money with no one overseeing them. This is the problem. We should have had a regulator noticing the loans being made, and questioning the lending institutions about the viability of the consumer paying the debt back.

I don't particularly like government regulation, but the key area it really needs to attack, is the lending industry, which includes banks.

Loaning money is the single most important element of a US economy. And as such, we need to be sure these debts can be paid back. What we had was a failure of the US Government to monitor the situation, and the lending industry took advantage of it.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 08-03-08 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 08-04-08, 06:44 AM
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a precious metals based currency is a terrible choice because it is a limited substance and cannot grow with the population. paper currency issued by a central bank is fine, but if we could have a bank in complete control of the government/people, not a few private banks like the Federal Reserve. in the money masters dvd they say that the colonies had a paper currency that worked great until britain took that right away. money is just something that everyone agrees on being worth something, so why can't the government issue it's own money and not some private bank? the current system only benefits the wealthy who simply shift their assets to stronger currencies, stocks, etc, buying on the lows and selling on the highs.
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Old 08-04-08, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by joeee
a precious metals based currency is a terrible choice because it is a limited substance and cannot grow with the population. paper currency issued by a central bank is fine, but if we could have a bank in complete control of the government/people, not a few private banks like the Federal Reserve. in the money masters dvd they say that the colonies had a paper currency that worked great until britain took that right away. money is just something that everyone agrees on being worth something, so why can't the government issue it's own money and not some private bank? the current system only benefits the wealthy who simply shift their assets to stronger currencies, stocks, etc, buying on the lows and selling on the highs.
The reason precious metals based makes sense is BECAUSE it can't grow with the population, easily. Paper is just that - paper. It's assigned a worth in people's heads. If confidence is down, the money is worth less. If the government wants to spend money on frivolous things, they can just print more. That's why we have the inflation we have today.

And Dr Mabuse, you're starting to sound like a Ron Paul supporter there... Better watch out!
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Old 08-04-08, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
This is why the Founding Fathers specified a precious metals backed currency. They knew what would happen if it was undone. Well in fact they specifically described where we are today, and where we are about to be in the near future. The warning from Jefferson in the quotes above is dead on.
How many big countries have their currency backed by precious metals? I really don't know.

Last edited by orangecrush; 08-04-08 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush18
How many big countries have their currency backed by precious metals? I really don't know.
A currency based on precious metals has never been the norm because it is the enemy of international money interests. We were a rare exception until 1863, then the following padding of the Supreme Court by President Grant, which lead to the eventual victory of the bankers in 1913.

"This bill(Federal Banking and Trust) establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." - Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr.(his son flew across the Atlantic), 1913

"The bill(Federal Banking and Trust) as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." - Senator Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913
The Founders had studied the failures of economies throughout history, and the failure of nations and governments also. These failures and there causes were the reasons for so many aspects of our nation.

They saw the most common failure was always rooted in the currency, money lenders, and fiscal habits of the government due to the previous two. Usually resulting in a standing army and corruption in high places that undid the nation. Corruption of the flavour where money interests controlled the government interests, like the US government is today. It's happened many times before. They knew that.

They wanted us to avoid those pitfalls. We also had currency problems in the early days of our nation under the Articles of Confederation. History and current events were why they were so specific in the Constitution, most directly in Article I, Section 10. The Founding Fathers actually wanted our money to BE precious metals, literally made from gold and silver. All forms of legal tender were to be based on precious metals entirely, in fact made of them as to the currency. Under this model, there was NO SUCH THING as "inflation". They knew what they were doing. Inflation is artificial, it is created. That part of the Constitution, Article I, Section 10, was written by an almost unknown, yet very important and interesting Founding Father. His name was Roger Sherman. He had written a book on the danger of fluctuating currencies(what we have in the US today, where 'inflation' and 'deflation' are considered normal), the book is titled 'A Caveat Against Injustice: An Inquiry into the Evils of a Fluctuating Medium of Exchange'. He was selected due to his knowledge to write that section of the constitution on currency. Interesting footnote, Roger Sherman was the only Founding Father to sign all four of our nation's most important founding documents.

The first goal of 'The Fed' was do do away with that precious metals standard. There was no way for bankers to create their own riches so easily on a 'hard' currency backed by precious metals, which is why the Founders wanted it. This is why it was passed on the Christmas Holiday in a session where most of the legislators had gone home, in fact late in the day on December 23, 1913. In the previous vote the 'Federal Banking and Trust'(create 'The Fed') act had failed, in a full vote in the House. It was passed in a sleazy way by a handful of lawmakers who were eager to gain the favor of the powerful interests who sought so hard to take control of our nation via the currency.

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" - Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependent on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." - Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863
Congressman Wright Patman, the Chairman of the House Banking Committee said this about the Federal Reserve in 1950:

"In the United States today we have in effect two governments... . We have the duly constituted Government... . Then we have an independent, uncontrolled and uncoordinated government in the Federal Reserve System, operating the money powers which are reserved to Congress by the Constitution." - Wright Patman
In the simplest and most direct understanding, the actions of the newly formed Fed created the great Depression. Starting with their tinkering after 1913, they created the artificial exuberance of the 20's, or the 'Roaring 20's', and set the nation up for The Depression.

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". - Congressman Louis T. McFadden,1932

"The new law will create inflation whenever the trusts want inflation... From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." - Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1913
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Old 08-04-08, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush18
How many big countries have their currency backed by precious metals? I really don't know.
None at the present. Here is a link to the wikipedia article about gold standards. It seems to give a pretty good basic background.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
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Old 08-04-08, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by foggy
None at the present. Here is a link to the wikipedia article about gold standards. It seems to give a pretty good basic background.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
Needs more historical quotes
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Old 08-04-08, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush18
Needs more historical quotes
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Old 08-04-08, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
You should fear the government, but in the context of your point I follow you.

You left out banks. This was the primary fear of the Founding Fathers, and many wise men since then. The corporations come AFTER the bank's control.



The simplest and most correct understanding of our economy is this: the moment we went away from a currency backed by precious metals to one controlled by banks, we were done for as a nation.

This is why the Founding Fathers specified a precious metals backed currency. They knew what would happen if it was undone. Well in fact they specifically described where we are today, and where we are about to be in the near future. The warning from Jefferson in the quotes above is dead on.

...


Well, except for that one Framer who was likely the most responsible for the Constitution itself.

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Old 08-04-08, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pharoh
Well, except for that one Framer who was likely the most responsible for the Constitution itself.

Hmmm...

Considering James Madison is the 'Father Of The Constitution' I think you are sorely off the mark there. WAY off.

Madison was so against ANY form of a central bank that he and Thomas Jefferson broke from their party over The National Bank proposal of 1791 by Alexander Hamilton. They created the Democratic Republican party to fight against those unconstitutional ideas of a national bank, ideas and some aspects of foreign policy.
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