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Islam and the West

Old 02-05-10, 11:51 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Pat Condell is not at a loss for words about the Wilders trial:

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Old 02-19-10, 08:25 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Nothing to worry about here, and there's no need for this to become a major story---I'm sure it's just an isolated incident of a few lone nuts acting crazy with no discernible motive.

Five Muslim soldiers arrested over Fort Jackson poison probe: report


Last Updated: 1:17 AM, February 19, 2010

Posted: 8:36 PM, February 18, 2010

Five individuals were arrested amid a probe into food poisoning at Fort Jackson U.S. military base, Fox News reported on Thursday (EST).

Sources told Fox the five men were detained in December over allegations that they attempted to poison the food supply at the South Carolina base.

They were all part of the base's Arabic translation training program, referred to in the Army as "Lima 09".

"Each of them uses Arabic as his first language," one source told Fox News.

In an earlier report, before the arrests emerged, a military source told Fox News the suspects were Muslims.

CBN News reported that the five arrested men were Islamic and cited a source who said they may have been in contact with five Washington, DC Muslims, who were arrested in December after authorities uncovered their plans to travel to Pakistan to wage jihad against the U.S.

However, it was unclear whether the men were still in custody.

An ongoing probe into the alleged Fort Jackson plot began two months ago, the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division spokesman Chris Grey told Fox News.

The Army is taking the allegations “extremely seriously,” Grey said, but so far, "there is no credible information to support the allegations".

The Federal Bureau of Investigation told Fox News they were "aware" of the Fort Jackson investigation, however they said the inquiry would be carried out by the Army's CID.

The investigation has surfaced in the wake of a mass shooting at Fort Hood, Texas last November, which killed 12 people and wounded 31 others.

It was allegedly undertaken by U.S. Army major Nidal Malik Hasan, an American-born Muslim of Palestinian descent, who was serving as a psychiatrist. He has been charged and a prosecution is ongoing.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz0fzXum4LN
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Old 03-11-10, 10:38 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

This is becoming normal for any vocal critics of Islam in Europe:

Lars Vilks: why some European artists are building panic rooms

AP – Swedish artist Lars Vilks talks during an interview with the Associated Press in Stockholm, Sweden, Wednesday … By Patrik Jonsson Patrik Jonsson – Wed Mar 10, 7:28 pm ET

Atlanta – Why did Lars Vilks, a mild-mannered Swede who calls himself “the artist,” booby-trap his art with electrified barbed wire, keep an ax by his bedside, and build a panic room upstairs? For one, Mr. Vilks’s 2007 cartoon of the prophet Mohammed as a stray dog continues to bring death threats and even a bounty on his head from an Al Qaeda-related group in Iraq. But after US authorities on Tuesday arrested Colleen LaRose, a Philadelphia woman known on the Internet as Jihad Jane, for allegedly planning to travel to rural Sweden and assassinate Vilks, civil libertarians such as George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley are pointing to another potential incentive for European artists to protect themselves: growing deference shown to Islam by European governments and journalists worried about stoking fanatical flames.

Since various cartoon controversies erupted after 9/11, European governments from Finland to the Netherlands have publicly upheld constitutional ideals of free speech and expression. But those same governments have also prosecuted people under new blasphemy laws intended both to extend legal protections to non-Christians and to calm religious tension in increasingly multicultural Europe.

It's not just Westerners defaming Islam who are being targeted by European governments. Last year, Dutch prosecutors charged the Arab European League under a blasphemy law after it published a cartoon questioning the Holocaust.

While the US Constitution does not allow blasphemy laws, the Obama administration changed policy direction last year when it supported the move by Muslim nations in the United Nations' Human Rights Council to recognize exceptions to free speech when it comes to “negative racial and religious stereotyping.” “Government prosecutions have quietly worked to chill any speech in the area of religion,” says Mr. Turley. “And I think that’s linked to journalists and artists who are living in fear of being physically attacked or killed. [Would-be terrorists] see Western governments willing to put people in jail for insulting Islam, and that tends to validate their views.” . Vilks himself played down the threat by likening the alleged planned attack to a B-grade Hollywood movie plot. “It’s about the bad guys and a good guy, and they try to kill him,” Vilks told the Associated Press Wednesday. “They have this woman also, which I think is a good part of the plot with this fantastic name, ‘Jihad Jane,’ who is actually doing some scouting there in the surroundings. You have something of a film there, but … I believe they’re a bit low tech.” His safe room is patterned on a concept that apparently saved Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who used a similar room to escape an assassination attempt in his home in January. Concern has spread among artists and journalists critical of Islam since the 2004 assassination of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a descendant of artist Vincent van Gogh. Swedish police keep a close watch over Vilks, but he does not have around-the-clock protection. Unlike in the United States, Swedish law does not guarantee citizens the right to protect themselves with firearms. Even as he builds a fortress, Vilks remains outwardly undaunted by the threat.

"As an artist, you have to take a stand for things. If you do something, you have to take full responsibility for it," Vilks told the Associated Press. "I'm actually not interested in offending the prophet. The point is actually to show that you can. There is nothing so holy you can't offend it."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100311...pphu-container
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Old 03-11-10, 01:21 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

I saw that story this morning on Yahoo and saw that one of the commenters just said "jihad, derka derka" which is fucking hilarious.
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Old 04-07-10, 11:54 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

I had my doubts, but kudos to Obama for removing the Islamic terrorist threat to national security.

Obama bans terms `Islam` and `jihad` from U.S. security document

President Barack Obama's advisers will remove religious terms such as "Islamic extremism" from the central document outlining the U.S. national security strategy and will use the rewritten document to emphasize that the United States does not view Muslim nations through the lens of terror, counterterrorism officials said.

The change is a significant shift in the National Security Strategy, a document that previously outlined the Bush Doctrine of preventative war and currently states: The struggle against militant Islamic radicalism is the great ideological conflict of the early years of the 21st century.

The officials described the changes on condition of anonymity because the document still was being written, and the White House would not discuss it.

But rewriting the strategy document will be the latest example of Obama putting his stamp on U.S. foreign policy, like his promises to dismantle nuclear weapons and limit the situations in which they can be used.

The revisions are part of a larger effort about which the White House talks openly, one that seeks to change not just how the United States talks to Muslim nations, but also what it talks to them about, from health care and science to business startups and education.

That shift away from terrorism has been building for a year, since Obama went to Cairo, Egypt, and promised a new beginning in the relationship between the United States and the Muslim world.

"You take a country where the overwhelming majority are not going to become terrorists, and you go in and say, 'We're building you a hospital so you don't become terrorists.' That doesn't make much sense, said National Security Council staffer Pradeep Ramamurthy.

Ramamurthy runs the administration's Global Engagement Directorate, a four-person National Security Council team that Obama launched last May with little fanfare and a vague mission to use diplomacy and outreach in pursuit of a host of national security objectives. Since then, the division has not only helped change the vocabulary of fighting terror but also has shaped the way the country invests in Muslim businesses, studies global warming, supports scientific research and combats polio.

"Do you want to think about the U.S. as the nation that fights terrorism or the nation you want to do business with?" Ramamurthy said.
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Old 04-16-10, 07:32 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

I don't venture into this thread much so not sure if this is already posted:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...sts_go_to_hell

Sheikh to Terrorists: Go to Hell
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Old 04-16-10, 09:16 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
I don't venture into this thread much so not sure if this is already posted:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...sts_go_to_hell

Sheikh to Terrorists: Go to Hell
Interesting. Often, Islamic scholars will declare "terrorism" or "killing of innocents" to be contrary to Islam. Pursuant to that, they won't specifically declare, for example, Israeli or American civilians to be "innocent"---so it's rather disinengenuous. I haven't read this guy's whole fatwa, so maybe he's being more specific, and if so that's to be applauded. However, this whole article should tell us something about the state of Islam in general. We're constantly told by the MSM that Islam is "a religion of peace", and that the vast majority of Muslims are moderate, and that Islam is no different than other relgions when it comes to having a "tiny minority of extremists". However, it's hard to buy that when a scholar like this guy issues a decree that terrorism is un-Islamic, and it's considered groundbreaking, controversial and newsworthy---it's already got him death threats, the article says it's stimulating discussion worldwide, and that it's hard to say what kind of effects this will have when it's more widely translated.

If this view was already held by the vast bulk of the Islamic world, why would this be noteworthy, or likely to stimulate debate?
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Old 04-16-10, 12:43 PM
  #258  
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Re: Islam and the West

Hey Ky-Fi, do you have a Gert Wilders update? What happened to his trial?
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Old 04-16-10, 01:42 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

I don't think there's been any new developments---I'm not sure when the court is back in session again. On the website he's got for the trial, the most recent news thing is his speech in London:

http://www.wildersontrial.com/index....neral&Itemid=2
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Old 04-20-10, 06:59 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Good example here of the choices and priorities various groups are choosing in the conflict with Islam:

Embattled Gender Analyst Leaves Post at Amnesty

Gita Sahgal calls her entry into the world of journalism "sort of accidental," but her most recent news appearances have been entirely on purpose.

On Feb. 7, the Sunday Times of London published her sharp critique of Amnesty International's support for former Guantanamo prisoner Moazzam Begg. She went public, the article says, because her internal warnings had been ignored.

Amnesty, the nearly 50-year-old rights group founded to speak on behalf of prisoners of conscience, has hailed Begg as a human rights defender, hosted him on speaking tours and included him in a meeting with politicians at Downing Street.

Sahgal has called him "Britain's most famous supporter of the Taliban." She points to passages in his 2006 autobiography, Enemy Combatant, where he describes moving to Taliban-ruled Afghanistan to "live in an Islamic state--one that was free from the corruption and despotism of the rest of the Muslim world." He also ran a bookstore in Birmingham, England, that sold works by known al-Qaida mentor Abdullah Azzam.

Hours later she was suspended, with pay but without explanation, from her job.

On April 9, she and the organization parted ways. In a statement released that day, the organization cited "irreconcilable differences."


Sahgal served as Amnesty International's top gender specialist since 2002. Two days before her suspension, the organization had promoted her to the newly-created position of interim head of the Gender, Sexuality and Identity division.

"It tells you a lot about where women's rights stand at Amnesty International," Sahgal said in a phone interview in March. "When they had to make the choice between Begg and their most senior discrimination expert who also has researched fundamentalism, they chose Begg."

Amnesty promptly refuted the initial accusations in a statement on its Web site, also posted on April 9, in which it affirmed its commitment to campaigning "for all internationally recognized human rights for all people," regardless of "their views, their political opinions, their actions."

Concerns Repeatedly Voiced

Sahgal said she had held several meetings over the years with higher-ups, during which she voiced her concerns about Begg and Cage prisoners, the detainees' rights group Begg founded after his release. It campaigns on behalf of Muslim leaders such as the preachers Anwar al-Awlaki and Abu Qatada.

Sahgal said she wrote a long memo for a board member at an Amnesty section who had raised concerns about Begg being invited to speak without mention of his beliefs, such as the fact that he advocates that Britain negotiate with more moderate factions of the Taliban, something that runs counter to Amnesty's stated policy.

Sam Zarifi, Amnesty's Asia-Pacific director, also had similar concerns. An internal e-mail, dated Feb. 10 and leaked to the Sunday Times, quoted him as saying: "We did not always clarify that while we champion the rights of all--including terrorism suspects, and more important, victims of terrorism--we do not champion their views."

However, he later wrote a letter to the paper in which he said his position had been misrepresented and that he "fully agree[s] with the measures Amnesty has taken in response" to Sahgal's going public with her disagreement.

"Amnesty has been going wrong for years on this issue and I wanted to know, how did it happen?" Sahgal asked. "They ignored my previous work. There was so much opposition [to partnering with Begg]. I'm battling for accountability. They have to explain how they came to that relationship."

Unable to convince any of her superiors to distance the organization from Begg, and with no explanation of the partnership, Sahgal said that she was forced to go public.

Suspension a Procedural Matter

The organization maintains that the suspension was not intended to silence her, but was a procedural matter related to her public comments. Interim Secretary General Claudio Cordone issued a statement Feb. 11.

"Our work with Moazzam Begg has focused exclusively on highlighting the human rights violations committed in Guantanamo Bay and the need for the U.S. government to shut it down and either release or put on trial those who have been held there," he said in the statement. "Moazzam Begg was one of the first detainees released by the U.S. without charge, and has never been charged with any terrorist-related offense or put on trial."

Sahgal says Amnesty's relationship with Begg appears to illustrate an institutional blind spot about how different human rights issues link and overlap.

"We can't just take prisoner's rights and women's rights as two parallel tracks and say 'Oh we fight on this side, and that side,'" she said. "There's nothing neutral about taking up the issues separately."

In the weeks since Sahgal began to push Amnesty International for a public accounting of its decision to partner with Begg, her conflict with the rights group, and the wider issue of the universality of human rights, have been debated and discussed in newspapers, on radio shows and TV programs around the world.

Writers and public intellectuals, such as University of Chicago professor Martha Nussbaum; Yakin Erturk, the former U.N. special rapporteur on violence against women; Amitav Ghosh; Salman Rushdie; and Christopher Hitchens signed a petition urging Amnesty to reinstate her, to no avail.

Sahgal, in the statement announcing her departure, described the organization's continued support for Begg in damning terms.

"Their stance has laid waste every achievement on women's equality and made a mockery of the universality of rights," it reads.


From India to England

Sahgal grew up in Mumbai and New Delhi and moved to England in 1972 to attend London's School of Oriental and African Studies, where she joined the vibrant anti-racism and anti-fascism movements that were spreading across England at that time.

In 1983 she joined the Southall Black Sisters, a women's rights group based in London that had been campaigning on domestic violence and issues affecting minority women in England.

In 1989, she co-founded Women Against Fundamentalism, a pro-secularism feminist group that came about, she says, partially in response to the Salman Rushdie affair, and that continues to raise awareness on the dangers of fundamentalism in all major religions.

Since her suspension, the group has issued a public statement in her support: "When governments and individuals advocate 'engagement' with the Taliban--perhaps necessary to achieve peace--why are they not challenged on the authoritarian social and political agenda of the Taliban? We know from experience around the world, including post-war Iraq, that women's rights are the first to be traded in these political settlements."

After working in various advocacy arenas, such women's rights and affordable housing in England, Sahgal took up journalism. She began as a presenter for the Bandung Files, a BBC Channel 4 program where she went on to work as a researcher and producer.

"I sort of strayed into it," she said of her journalistic career.

For now, she plans to continue campaigning on the issue of terrorism as a serious human rights violation. After eight years at Amnesty, she's going back, she says, to her "old freelance life."

This article was contributed by Anna Louie Sussman who is a writer based in Beirut and New York. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the International Herald Tribune and other print and online outlets.

Copyright © 2010 Women's eNews

http://www.womensradio.com/articles/...esty/4950.html

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 04-20-10 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 04-20-10, 10:31 AM
  #261  
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Re: Islam and the West

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/19...on-south-park/

South Park is now an enemy of Islam.

“We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show."
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Old 04-20-10, 11:56 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/19...on-south-park/

South Park is now an enemy of Islam.

“We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show."
Those Mulims are going to shit a brick when they find out about the Super Best Friends episode and the fact that Muhammad is depicted in the opening credits of every single episode of South Park since 2001.

Edit: Anderson Cooper must have read my post, he had the supper best friends clip on his show last night. It actually seemed like that was the only clip he had, and that he thought that was what aired last week.

Last edited by Mabuse; 04-21-10 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 04-20-10, 10:42 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

They should have used a pig suit instead of a bear suit.
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Old 04-21-10, 10:47 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

I would say this is fairly ridiculous, as there's no way any French police are going to go into the banlieues and arrest women for wearing the veil, but it's interesting that the debate is getting to this level.

Sarkozy to submit bill banning Islamic face veils


France … By SYLVIE CORBET, Associated Press Writer Sylvie Corbet, Associated Press Writer – 13 mins ago


PARIS – French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Wednesday ordered legislation that would ban women from wearing Islamic veils that hide the face in the street and other public places.

In seeking to forbid the garment from public view, Sarkozy defied the advise of experts sought by the government who warned that such a broad ban risked contravening France's constitution.

Such a measure would put France on the same track as Belgium which is also moving toward a complete ban in a similar reaction to the intrusion of Islamic culture on native European values. Sarkozy has repeatedly said that such clothing oppresses women and is "not welcome" in France.

Government spokesman Luc Chatel said after Wednesday's weekly Cabinet meeting that the president decided the government should submit a bill to parliament in May on an overall ban on burqa-like veils "in all public places."

The decision to seek a full ban, rather than a limited ban, came as a surprise. After a Cabinet meeting just a week ago, the government spokesman announced a decision for legislation that bans the veil but takes into account conclusions on the matter by the Council of State, France's highest administrative office.

The government had sought the council's opinion to ensure a law would pass constitutional muster. The Council of State advised that a full ban would be "legally very fragile." A six-month parliamentary inquiry also concluded that a full ban would raise constitutional issues, as well as enforcement problems.

"It's a transgression, an aggression even, on the level of personal liberty," said Abdellatif Lemsibak, a member of the National Federation of Muslims of France. "The Muslims have the right to an orthodox expression of their religion ... it shocks me."

France is a firmly secular country but has western Europe's largest Muslim population, estimated at some 5 million. France worries about clashes in values as well as about a spread of radical Islam. Authorities widely see the veil in light of gender equality and security issues.

In neighboring Belgium, a similar initiative for a ban on full veils in public places, including in the streets, is expected to become law in July.

Muslim leaders in France say that the face-covering veil is not a religious requirement of Islam but have cautioned against banning the garment.

The government spokesman said the French president considered that burqa-style veils that hide the face, such as niqabs, "do not pose a problem in a religious sense, but threaten the dignity of women."

France outlawed Muslim headscarves and other "ostentatious" religious symbols from classrooms in 2004 after a marathon parliamentary debate and, "we are acting in the same way today. We have decided to legislate," Chatel said.

Numerous school girls wore headscarves in class, but only a tiny minority of women wear the all-covering veil. Nevertheless, debate on the question of whether a law is needed and how far it should reach has continued for nearly a year.

Muslim leaders say that the debate itself has stigmatized Muslims, as has a national debate on the French identity.

Even within Sarkozy's own conservative UMP party, the question of forbidding face-covering veils in streets is divisive.

One of the party's leading lawmakers, Jean-Francois Cope, had already filed his own preliminary bill for a global ban on the garments — which should be superseded by the government's. Cope called Sarkozy's decision "wise" and said the government needs to move rapidly "so the French know that, on this point, we are truly determined."

Cope, speaking to reporters, suggested the law should be passed by the end of July — but followed by a six-month consultation period before it is applied.

Sarkozy insisted that "everything should be done so that no one feels stigmatized," Chatel said without elaborating.

The French parliament is already slated to discuss a nonbinding resolution on May 11 that sets out political principles, including the need for women to keep their faces uncovered.

___

Elaine Ganley and Katie King in Paris contributed to this report.
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Old 04-21-10, 11:04 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Interesting how the French are moving one way while the British move another. FWIW, I think both angles (the face veils and the hand washing) are taking things to ridiculous extremes.
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Old 04-21-10, 11:15 AM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Interesting how the French are moving one way while the British move another.
Yes, it's very different. At this point in time, I think the French have a much stronger sense of national identity/cultural pride than the British do.

Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
FWIW, I think both angles (the face veils and the hand washing) are taking things to ridiculous extremes.
I think both angles are unfortunate, but given the demographics, I'm not sure there are too many options. It seems to me that the choices are between accepting Islamification (to whatever degree), curtailing civil liberties and personal freedoms (like this ban), or civil unrest and ethnic conflict. None of those are too appealing, IMO.
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Old 04-22-10, 05:27 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Comedy Central adopts Islamic standards of what constitutes blasphemy:

"South Park" airs censored episode after threat

By Alex Dobuzinskis
Wed Apr 21, 10:30 PM PDT

Satirical animated TV show "South Park" beeped out the words Prophet Muhammad and plastered its Wednesday episode with the word "CENSORED" after being issued a grim warning by a U.S. Muslim group.

The irreverent comedy show on Comedy Central also substituted a controversial image seen last week of the Prophet Muhammad in a bear outfit with one of Santa Claus in the same costume.


It was not immediately clear if the move was a bid to tread carefully following the warning against the "South Park" creators, or if they were poking fun at the fuss.

The little-known group RevolutionMuslim.com posted a message on its website earlier this week warning creators Matt Stone and Trey Parker "that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show."

The website posted a graphic photo of Van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker who was killed in 2004 by an Islamic militant over a movie he had made that accused Islam of condoning violence against women. It also posted a link to a news article with details of a mansion in Colorado that Parker and Stone apparently own.

Most Muslims consider any depiction of the founder of Islam as offensive.

The website warning followed the first in a two-part episode of "South Park" a week ago in which Prophet Mohammad was depicted in a bear outfit.

"South Park" has a history of biting satire against politicians, celebrities and the media. The two Colorado filmmakers are known to often work on "South Park" until just before they air, enabling them to react to current events.

In Wednesday's new episode, Jesus Christ was depicted watching pornography and Buddha was portrayed snorting cocaine.

The head of Revolution Muslim, Younus Abdullah Muhammad, 30, defended the Web posting by his group.

"How is that a threat?," he told Reuters earlier on Wednesday. "Showing a case study right there of what happened to another individual who conducted himself in a very similar manner? It's just evidence."

According to U.S. law enforcement officials, the federal government rarely prosecutes threat cases. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives broad protections to free speech, and what constitutes a threat is often subject to interpretation.

Muhammad described his group as an alternative media outlet with about 20 active posters to the website. He said the group "didn't tell anyone to go to their houses and conduct violence" against Parker or Stone.

Comedy Central, a unit of Viacom Inc, has declined to comment on the controversy.

(Additional reporting by Louis Charbonneau; editing by Jill Serjeant and Mohammad Zargham)

http://tv.yahoo.com/south-park/show/...thpark_muslims

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 04-22-10 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 04-22-10, 05:57 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Yes, it's very different. At this point in time, I think the French have a much stronger sense of national identity/cultural pride than the British do.
God I love the internet: this stage of pontificating fools.
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Old 04-22-10, 06:03 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Actually, it was Comedy Central who censored the South Park episode.
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Old 04-22-10, 06:12 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Burnt Thru View Post
God I love the internet: this stage of pontificating fools.
Hey, maybe there is hope for ol' Blighty after all, if even Burnt Thru has some faint patriotic sentiment.
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Old 04-22-10, 06:21 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Here's Daniel Pipes opinion on this subject, from his excellent piece "Europe's Stark Options":


*****

"....What often is depicted as Europe's political correctness reflects what I believe is a deeper phenomenon, namely, the alienation of many Europeans from their civilization, a sense that their historic culture is not worth fighting for or even saving. It's striking to note differences within Europe in this regard. Perhaps the country least prone to this alienation is France, where traditional nationalism still holds sway and the French take pride in their identity. Britain is the most alienated country, as symbolized by the plaintive government program, "ICONS - A Portrait of England," that lamely hopes to rekindle patriotism by connecting Britons to their "national treasures" such as Winnie-the-Pooh and the miniskirt.

This diffidence has had direct and adverse implications for Muslim immigrants, as Aatish Taseer explained in Prospect magazine:

Britishness is the most nominal aspect of identity to many young British Pakistanis. … If you denigrate your own culture you face the risk of your newer arrivals looking for one elsewhere. So far afield in this case, that for many second-generation British Pakistanis, the desert culture of the Arabs held more appeal than either British or subcontinental culture. Three times removed from a durable sense of identity, the energised extra-national worldview of radical Islam became one available identity for second-generation Pakistanis."


****

To read that in context with the rest of his article:

http://www.danielpipes.org/4323/europes-stark-options
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Old 04-22-10, 06:29 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Hey, maybe there is hope for ol' Blighty after all, if even Burnt Thru has some faint patriotic sentiment.
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" - Wilde, O.

I'm simply aware that culture isn't a static entity and the foolish attempts of the French to ring-fence their language (for instance) against American English intrusion are equivalent to Canute waking up and taking a wander down to the beach.
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Old 04-22-10, 06:45 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Burnt Thru View Post
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" - Wilde, O.

I'm simply aware that culture isn't a static entity and the foolish attempts of the French to ring-fence their language (for instance) against American English intrusion are equivalent to Canute waking up and taking a wander down to the beach.
First of all, you call me a "pontificating fool" for suggesting that the British have a weak sense of national identity, then in the next post you sneer at the very concept of patriotism.


Of course culture isn't static, and obviously all change isn't necessarily for the better. The salient question is whether a society is going to take an active or passive role in how the culture will change and what things are going to be preserved. Lots of societies have abdicated that role, and faded away.
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Old 04-22-10, 06:57 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
First of all, you call me a "pontificating fool" for suggesting that the British have a weak sense of national identity, then in the next post you sneer at the very concept of patriotism.
Fear and the votes to be gained by feeding that fear is the most likely explaination for the way some Frenchies react to their culture being altered in some manner.


Of course culture isn't static, and obviously all change isn't necessarily for the better. The salient question is whether a society is going to take an active or passive role in how the culture will change and what things are going to be preserved. Lots of societies have abdicated that role, and faded away.
Name one society which has defended its culture successfuly. In what manner has this been achieved. Oh, and our expulsion of the Jews in the middle ages doesn't count - they got back in!
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Old 04-22-10, 07:06 PM
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Re: Islam and the West

Originally Posted by Burnt Thru View Post

Name one society which has defended its culture successfuly. In what manner has this been achieved.
In order to spice up this forum, I think that question could be answered most eloquently by the esteemed Bruce Dickinson and Co.

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