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forget ANWR, there may be 900 billion barrels of oil under the Great Plains

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forget ANWR, there may be 900 billion barrels of oil under the Great Plains

Old 04-09-08, 07:08 AM
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forget ANWR, there may be 900 billion barrels of oil under the Great Plains

this report is going to come out tomorrow and the eco-nuts are probably getting ready to make sure this oil never gets used

http://www.redorbit.com/news/busines...rly_completed/

Research on Bakken Formation's Oil Reserves Nearly Completed
By Schuster, Ryan

The U.S. Geological Survey is nearing completion of a research project that will attempt to quantify how much oil is contained in the Bakken shales formation and how much of it is recoverable.

The study is expected to be completed by late April, according to Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who, along with other state officials, pushed the federal agency to finish the research started by scientist Leigh Price.

Billion barrels

Price estimated the Bakken formation may hold as many as 900 billion barrels of oil. But Price died in 2000 before the study could be published or peer reviewed.

Other estimates of the Bakken formation's oil reserves have pegged the number at closer to 200 billion or 300 billion barrels.

Dorgan said Thursday during a stop in Grand Forks that completing the survey is important to North Dakota. The Bakken formation stretches across western and central North Dakota, eastern Montana, southern Saskatchewan and part of northwestern South Dakota.

"I think it's going to show a very substantial recoverable reserve of oil," Dorgan said. "It will be important as a signal to the rest of the world what we have here."

Dorgan optimistic

Dorgan said the U.S. Geological Survey began work on finishing Price's work about a year and a half ago.

He said he is optimistic that improvements in technology will lead to a substantial increase in how much of the oil in the formation will be able to be recovered.

Dorgan said the study's findings will only increase the oil boom that the western part of the state currently is experiencing.

"The oil boom is real and it's going to be real significant" Dorgan said.

During a stop at the International Crop Expo on Thursday in the Alerus Center, Dorgan questioned why the Department of Energy continues to put aside 50.000 to 60,000 barrels of crude oil in the nearly-full strategic petroleum reserve every day in light of high oil and gas prices.

"When oil is $90 to $100 a barrel, we shouldn't be taking it out of the supply pipeline and sticking it underground," Dorgan said. "It is increasing prices. I think it's absolutely nuts to be doing this with the current price of oil."

Dorgan said it is important to maintain the strategic petroleum reserve, but he said the reserve is about 97 percent full and there is no reason to continue filling it when oil and gas prices are so high.

Dorgan also said that high oil and gas prices affect farmers and North Dakotans more than some, citing research that showed North Dakota residents use twice as much gas per person as New York residents.
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Old 04-09-08, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy's News Article
During a stop at the International Crop Expo on Thursday in the Alerus Center, Dorgan questioned why the Department of Energy continues to put aside 50.000 to 60,000 barrels of crude oil in the nearly-full strategic petroleum reserve every day in light of high oil and gas prices.

"When oil is $90 to $100 a barrel, we shouldn't be taking it out of the supply pipeline and sticking it underground," Dorgan said. "It is increasing prices. I think it's absolutely nuts to be doing this with the current price of oil."
Because the strategic petroleum reserve is for an emergency (as in another world war or if the US is cutoff from importing oil) and not so people can save money at the pump.
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Old 04-09-08, 09:00 AM
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I agree with Dorgan on a number of things. I don't agree with him on this.
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Old 04-09-08, 09:39 AM
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I posted this in the exxon/mobil thread. Technology and innovation has always been the answer compared to forced conservation. We have technology now that is getting oil from fields that were abandoned.
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Old 04-09-08, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Technology and innovation has always been the answer compared to forced conservation.
Provided market mechanisms are in place to promote innovation. I'm hesitant to say that oil is anywhere close to being a free market, what with cartelization (OPEC), government influence (gasoline taxes, the strategic reserve), and whatever the hell you want to call the market distortion known as Venezuela.
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Old 04-09-08, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
Provided market mechanisms are in place to promote innovation. I'm hesitant to say that oil is anywhere close to being a free market, what with cartelization (OPEC), government influence (gasoline taxes, the strategic reserve), and whatever the hell you want to call the market distortion known as Venezuela.
There certainly is a marketplace mechanism in place: a great deal of profit. That's usually the only marketplace mechanism that's needed.
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Old 04-09-08, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
Provided market mechanisms are in place to promote innovation. I'm hesitant to say that oil is anywhere close to being a free market, what with cartelization (OPEC), government influence (gasoline taxes, the strategic reserve), and whatever the hell you want to call the market distortion known as Venezuela.

oil is traded on the free market even if there is a cartel

OPEC can't sell you oil for a price greater than you are willing to pay
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Old 04-09-08, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
oil is traded on the free market even if there is a cartel

OPEC can't sell you oil for a price greater than you are willing to pay
Oil may be traded on a market even if there is a cartel, but the existence of the cartel means the market isn't unfettered. The same goes for all those taxes.
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Old 04-09-08, 10:17 AM
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name one time in history when there has been a complete free market in anything anywhere?
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Old 04-09-08, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
name one time in history when there has been a complete free market in anything anywhere?
I'm not sure that's the point. The point I'm making is that oil is not traded on a free market, which limits innovation and other market mechanisms.
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Old 04-09-08, 10:29 AM
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In this country, the major oil companies control the price of domestic oil.

The indpendent oil man brings in a well. Where is he going to sell his oil - to the major oil companies. He has no other choice. His bankers (backers) want their money they have loaned him to bring in the well - millions of dollars. He's 'forced' to sell his oil to Texaco, Conoco-Phillips, Exxon-Mobile, etc. It's hardly a free market.
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Old 04-09-08, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
In this country, the major oil companies control the price of domestic oil.

The indpendent oil man brings in a well. Where is he going to sell his oil - to the major oil companies. He has no other choice. His bankers (backers) want their money they have loaned him to bring in the well - millions of dollars. He's 'forced' to sell his oil to Texaco, Conoco-Phillips, Exxon-Mobile, etc. It's hardly a free market.
Just because there are a small number of buyers does not mean it is not a free market. It does mean there is not perfect competition, but that's a different concept than the concept of a free market.
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Old 04-09-08, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
There certainly is a marketplace mechanism in place: a great deal of profit. That's usually the only marketplace mechanism that's needed.
If that were true, then there'd be no need for anti-trust legislation whatsoever -- but the fact of the matter is that extremely powerfful monopolies are actually detrimental to the capitalist system. If you are a rich person who wants to get richer, you don't want free trade, you want collusion, you want price fixing, so that you can keep prices artificially high for as long as possible. Further, you want to do everything possible to inflate demand -- lobby against fuel-efficiency standards, restrict supply, and promote excess wherever possible. High demand + high price = mega-profit, which directly hurts American consumers.
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Old 04-09-08, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
If that were true, then there'd be no need for anti-trust legislation whatsoever -- but the fact of the matter is that extremely powerfful monopolies are actually detrimental to the capitalist system. If you are a rich person who wants to get richer, you don't want free trade, you want collusion, you want price fixing, so that you can keep prices artificially high for as long as possible. Further, you want to do everything possible to inflate demand -- lobby against fuel-efficiency standards, restrict supply, and promote excess wherever possible. High demand + high price = mega-profit, which directly hurts American consumers.
My only point is that the only thing that's really needed for technological innovation is the motive for profit.
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Old 04-09-08, 11:49 AM
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Posting this from Wikipedia as it pertains to the discussion:

This massive estimate appears to dwarf the estimated 50–70 billion barrels (8–11 km³) of technically recoverable and irrecoverable oil in Alaska's North Slope. A conservative estimate of Bakken's technically recoverable oil would be 1% to 3%, or between 4.1 and 12.4 billion barrels (0.6–2 km³) of oil, due to the fact that Bakken's shale is so tight. However, other estimates range from 10% to as high as 50% technically recoverable reserves.[7] By comparison, recoverable oil estimates in the Alaska formation are 30% to 50%, or a mean of 26 billion barrels (4 km³).
I have no idea what tight shale means, other than it must be hard to squeeze oil out of it.
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Old 04-09-08, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
If that were true, then there'd be no need for anti-trust legislation whatsoever -- but the fact of the matter is that extremely powerfful monopolies are actually detrimental to the capitalist system. If you are a rich person who wants to get richer, you don't want free trade, you want collusion, you want price fixing, so that you can keep prices artificially high for as long as possible. Further, you want to do everything possible to inflate demand -- lobby against fuel-efficiency standards, restrict supply, and promote excess wherever possible. High demand + high price = mega-profit, which directly hurts American consumers.
today you can buy a car that gets 30 - 50 miles per gallon or one that gets less than 10. only reason CAFE is still low is people choose to buy the gas hogs

democrats have had as much to do with CAFE being the same now as republicans
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Old 04-09-08, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mordred
Posting this from Wikipedia as it pertains to the discussion:

I have no idea what tight shale means, other than it must be hard to squeeze oil out of it.
you have to heat it to get oil out of it

the great plains used to be a huge sea tens of millions of years ago
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Old 04-09-08, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
democrats have had as much to do with CAFE being the same now as republicans
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Old 04-09-08, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
you have to heat it to get oil out of it

the great plains used to be a huge sea tens of millions of years ago
Yeah, you need to use massive amounts of energy to heat water. I'm not sure what the return on investment is.
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Old 04-09-08, 12:51 PM
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Getting oil from shale is a dirty (likely environment damaging), energy-intensive, expensive process. The day will certainly come when we are glad to have this shale to squeeze oil from.

In drilling for oil, things can go wrong and a mess can be made. But normally, it is a much cleaner process. Why anyone would say "forget ANWR, lets dig up and ruin North Dakota as soon as we can" confounds me. It makes no sense compared to taking off limits, but easy oil and putting in back within limits (ANWR, Florida coast, and some other locations.)
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Old 04-09-08, 12:51 PM
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If you're an independent oil producer, sure you can choose not to sell your oil; or you can invest a couple of billion dollars digging a pipeline to the refinery - assuming that refinery is not owned by the major oil company(ies) that you refused to sell your oil to; or you can always leave it in the ground and declare bankruptcy.

The major oil companies have you by the balls. They dictate the price and the terms of the contract (length). You have no choice but to accept, because the other major companies will offer you the same deal.

Last edited by classicman2; 04-09-08 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 04-09-08, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDude
Getting oil from shale is a dirty (likely environment damaging), energy-intensive, expensive process. The day will certainly come when we are glad to have this shale to squeeze oil from.

In drilling for oil, things can go wrong and a mess can be made. But normally, it is a much cleaner process. Why anyone would say "forget ANWR, lets dig up and ruin North Dakota as soon as we can" confounds me. It makes no sense compared to taking off limits, but easy oil and putting in back within limits (ANWR, Florida coast, and some other locations.)
So this is basically the same thing as the oily shale they have in Canada that's been talked about for the past few years then, right?
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Old 04-09-08, 01:09 PM
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Where do you believe would be cheaper to bring in a productive well - ANWR or North Dakota?

btw: Why aren't we drilling in The Great Lakes? Our northern neighbor that is our biggest supplier of oil has wells in The Great Lakes.
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Old 04-09-08, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
name one time in history when there has been a complete free market in anything anywhere?
At the dawn of man?
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Old 04-09-08, 01:42 PM
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This almost sounds like the same area where I posted about.

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