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Fitna, The Movie

Old 03-27-08, 05:43 PM
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Fitna, The Movie

I was my usual windbag self on the Islamaphobia thread, and posted a really long piece---I'll repost the link to the film here so it doesn't get quickly buried in that thread:

Originally Posted by Mark_vdH
Here, for old times sake, Geert Wilders' short movie Fitna...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
Oh, and here's some wikipedia background:

Fitna

is a film by Dutch politician Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom (PVV) in the Dutch parliament. The movie offers a critical view of Islam and the Koran. The name comes from the Arabic word fitna which is used to describe "disagreement and division among people", or a "test of faith in times of trial".[2]

The movie was released on the Internet on 27 March 2008


Reaction from the Netherlands

The movie was first mentioned in the Dutch media on November 27, 2007. The Dutch government almost immediately expressed great concern about the film release.[13] It made emergency evacuation plans available to all its consulates and embassies worldwide. It also hardened security measurements around military installations abroad.[14]

Prime minister Jan Peter Balkenende of the Netherlands worried about possible repercussions for Dutch citizens and economic interests.[15] In response Wilders accused Balkenende of capitulating to Islam.[16]

The publication of the film was investigated by the Dutch Ministry of Justice to find out whether the release of the film could be prevented, but this could not be done.[17]

On March 6th 2008, the Dutch government raised its national terroristic threat level from the status 'limited terroristic threat' to 'substantial terroristic threat' because it fears Muslim terrorists will launch attacks against European targets, with the film as one of the causes.[18][19]

Public protests have occurred in Dam Square, Amsterdam[20]

In response to concerns, Dutch broadcaster Radio Netherlands Worldwide created a multi-language website to detail the film, the surrounding controversy, its creator, and the nation of its origin.[21] The Dutch newspaper De Pers printed a reconstruction of how the concerns came about and who was responsible for them.[22]

The film also caused severe reactions in newspapers. In one issue of de Volkskrant, an ad is posted wich claims that if Wilders had said the things he has said about muslims about jews, he would have been prosecuted for antisemitism.[citation needed]

Many Dutch people have posted films on YouTube prior to the release of the film apolgising in advance on behalf of the residents of the Netherlands for any offense which the film causes.

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 03-27-08 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 03-27-08, 06:48 PM
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After watching the movie, Wilders isn't the one who says a whole lot. He just lets the Islamists and the Koran itself that speak. And what they say should wake up people. I suspect that it is too late for Europe given that their political leaders appear to be bent over and grabbing their ankles.
Esp. scary was the 3 year old kid who calls Jews apes and pigs because he knows Allah says so.

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Old 03-28-08, 08:10 AM
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Interesting film... glad I watched it. Thanks for the link!
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Old 03-28-08, 04:32 PM
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Those passages don't strike me as any more hateful than some in the bible (Leviticus 20:13, anyone?). The major difference seems to me that, to my knowledge, few Christians have used these as motivation for senseless violence in the last few decades.
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Old 03-28-08, 04:35 PM
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Fitna removed from Liveleak due to threats of violence:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/7d9_1206624103"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/7d9_1206624103" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

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Old 03-28-08, 04:57 PM
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And of course the UN toes its usual line:

U.N.'s Ban condemns Dutch film as anti-Islamic

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...80328?rpc=401&

Fri Mar 28, 2008

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Friday condemned as "offensively anti-Islamic" a Dutch lawmaker's film that accuses the Koran of inciting violence.

Ban acknowledged efforts by the government of the Netherlands to stop the broadcast of the film, which was launched by Islam critic Geert Wilders over the Internet, and appealed for calm to those "understandably offended by it."

"There is no justification for hate speech or incitement to violence," Ban said in a statement. "The right of free expression is not at stake here."

The short film, titled "Fitna," an Arabic term sometimes translated as "strife," intersperses images of the September 11 attacks on the United States and Islamist bombings with quotations from the Koran.

The film urges Muslims to tear out "hate-filled" verses from the Koran and starts and finishes with a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad with a bomb under his turban, accompanied by the sound of ticking.

Several Muslim countries, including Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia, have also condemned the film.

"Freedom must always be accompanied by social responsibility," Ban said.

"We must also recognize that the real fault line is not between Muslim and Western societies, as some would have us believe, but between small minorities of extremists, on different sides, with a vested interest in stirring hostility and conflict," Ban said.

**************************************

So, reflective of the ideology of the UN, the dangerous extremists in the Muslim world are those Muslims who take inspiration from the Quran to commit acts of violence.....and the analogous dangerous extremists in the West are those who make films showing that some Muslims take inspiration from the Quran to commit acts of violence.
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Old 03-28-08, 08:00 PM
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I can see how the film would be offensive. But I watched it and I'm still okay, so I see NO reason to restrict its distribution. To say it's not a violation of free speech is bogus. People are trying to hinder this film based on fear. Oh, the irony.

Thing is... the film would have been just as powerful for me without the message at the end. But in such a case, this film that provokes sadness and awareness in some would be seen as a highlight reel by those who are featured. And THAT is something worth noting when it comes to restricting it.
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Old 03-28-08, 08:34 PM
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Now hosted by YouTube.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bCrCsTMokTU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bCrCsTMokTU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

It strikes me as a fairly standard propaganda piece.
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Old 03-28-08, 08:43 PM
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lol @ some of the comments on youtube. I haven't seen that much deflecting the issue onto christianity since..well...here.
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Old 03-28-08, 09:00 PM
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You don't need propaganda to sell the idea Islam is a practice of wanten violence against not only non-Muslims, but Muslims as well, to serve the purpose of a local cleric who wants money, sex, and whatever else the Koran forbids.

Hell, the shit sells itself.

Ephemeral_Life is spot-on. The Koran isn't itself violent. I can think of many Christian passages which say the same. The difference, is Islam has been used in poorly educated countries to control the masses. Those masses who have learned this insanely retarded crap, then go on to modern countries and start their own version of intolerance for others' beliefs.

If we were as tough on Islam as Islam is with us, there wouldn't be such a fascination with it. It would be akin to watching an infomercial at 3am.

I give a big to Geert Wilders for not hiding from Islam and Islam Sympathizers.

And all those who denounce this opinion piece, including General Ban Ki-moon, can kiss my Christian ass.

This is an opinion. Only those who fear opinion and fear what it may be a catalyst to, want to crush it.
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Old 03-28-08, 09:09 PM
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The Koran isn't itself violent. I can think of many Christian passages which say the same. The difference, is Islam has been used in poorly educated countries to control the masses. Those masses who have learned this insanely retarded crap, then go on to modern countries and start their own version of intolerance for others' beliefs.
I disagree with this, the parts of the Koran that urge violence against others were "revealed" to Mohammed later than the passages that urge to live in peace therefore, they supercede the ones that tell Muslims to live in peace passages. Moderate clerics have a problem because they cannot use the Koran to make a scriptural arguement for peace.
The other part of this is that to every Muslim, Mohammed was a role model as is Jesus(not pronouned "Hey-soos") was to Christians. Mohammed himself asked his followers to assasinate critics and kill disbelievers and rewarded those that did in his name.
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Old 03-29-08, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
But in such a case, this film that provokes sadness and awareness in some would be seen as a highlight reel by those who are featured. And THAT is something worth noting when it comes to restricting it.
Exactly, and I made a similar comment in a different thread. There are DVDs circulating all over the world that have a lot of the same footage that are made by Islamists as an entertaining highlight reel, making the exact same connections between the Quranic verses and the violent actions-- and saying "this is great!". And there's no worldwide Muslim protests, UN proclamations or international concern over those. But when someone instead shows the exact same footage and makes the exact same connection between the religion and the violence, and says "this is bad!", suddenly there's a global uproar and a frenzy to censor it.

Regarding the comparison of different religions, I don't think it's a very logical or convincing case just to grab a verse that seems violent out of either the Quran or the Bible, and then fantasize that they're both equallly likely to inspire violence. The texts don't exist in vacuum, whose meaning is completely dependant on the individual reading it. You need to actually understand the historical exegesis of the texts by the centuries of scholars, clerics and recognized schools of jurisprudence which have laid forth the way the texts are to be interpreted by the followers. Thus, when someone points to Leviticus demanding the execution of adulterers, gays, whatever, you can point to the official, written, preached position of the Catholic church (which represents over half of the world's Christians) which specifically opposes the death penalty for ANY reason. And you can find similar documentation of other issues in the centuries of teachings of the protestant churches, and the Eastern orthodox.

Now if you want to cling to a multicultural fantasy that Islam is pretty much the same, then all you would need to do is to is research the historical and current interpretations of the Quran by the highest ranking clerics, and see how those passages are understood by the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence from the beginnings of Islam up through the present day---and if you can find a major, influential school of Islam that takes a liberal, non-literal view of the Quran's violent passages that is analogous to the Catholic church's view of Leviticus, then you'll be all set. Good luck finding that.
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Old 03-29-08, 09:08 AM
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I got a minute in before I had to shut it off. I still can't watch 9/11 footage.
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Old 03-29-08, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
The Koran isn't itself violent.
says yet another person who hasn't read any the Quran, or the Hadith, or any of the Sirah, or etc....

unless you mean an inanimate piece of wood pulp cannot in and of itself attack or harm people... i agree with you there...

"comparable things in Christianity"... that is laughable... only in a state of ignorance could that statement be made...

Originally Posted by bhk
I disagree with this,
in addition to you, the Quran, and Hadith, and Sirah books disagree with that assertion completely... but in a discussion that lacks factual information, people so often just make up what they wish to believe and run with it... things like 'the quran is about peace' and other nonsense of that type...

the Quran is absolutely unique in it's purity of racial hatred, and religious hate, and it calls for murder as the highest service towards 'allah' possible... the murder of any and all who happen to not believe in allah as the only religion... it's even worse than cultures in which human sacrifice was the norm...

you have to actually read the stuff to know the facts though... that's the trick...

so... just like most Christians in every church, on any given sunday, are pretty much wholly ignorant of the bible... even more is the world at large ignorant of the books of Islam... they keep their people unable to read on purpose, for control... hence very, very, few actually know the content of those Islam books... and they make up nonsense about their religion, whatever they want to be true...

here's a hint... "Islam is about peace", "the Quran is about peace"... people saying things like that are the ones wholly ignorant of the nature of the religion and those books...

the Quran says plainly... at many times and in many ways... Jewish people, Christians, and the various terms for the Hindu peoples, are to be killed unless they convert to allah, or they pay a tax to muslims and hold themselves in subjection, and when no longer able to pay the tax they are killed...

this literally is phrased in the words 'until the last Jew, or people of the book(Christians), are hiding behind a rock, and the rock itself will cry out "oh muslim there is one of the scripture(Jewish or Christian) hiding behind me" and you will kill that last one, until religion is only for allah'...

also any person who is of Islam who converts to any other religion is to be killed... hence that young man this week is in hiding from the death threats of his own father, who quoted the Quran on why he HAD to kill his own son for converting...

the Imams who speak death to America, the largest majority of Imams do so all over the world, do so quoting the Quran accurately and word for word... they need not make that stuff up...

the battle of Tours may well be the most important single battle in the last 2000 years...
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Old 03-29-08, 09:24 AM
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I thought youtube wasn't going to have the movie?

Sad to see LiveLeak had to remove it for safety reasons.
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Old 03-29-08, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
lol @ some of the comments on youtube. I haven't seen that much deflecting the issue onto christianity since..well...here.
What do you care? You're Catholic, not Christian.
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Old 03-29-08, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
says yet another person who hasn't read any the Quran, or the Hadith, or any of the Sirah, or etc....
Apparently, you haven't read The Torah. Or the simple KJV.

Who are the Gentiles? And what does the Torah say about non-Jews? What does the KJV say about non-Jews? What did God say to do with them?

Fact is, BOTH Holy Books speak about death and undeserving of God's wonder in their writings. However, they BOTH have several passages regarding peace. This is the grand controversy with holy books like this. But the fact they do speak of PEACE for one another, says to me it is considered, and that the book isn't entirely a book of death.

So, please don't spin your argument and say I haven't read these books. If you have read these books, please give me quotes, instead of unreferenced generalizations when you debate me.

Oh wait, here's one from the Koran I just read a few days ago:

Koran, "The Cow", 2.62:

Originally Posted by The Evil Koran
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
Stop watching Fox News, and start reading for yourself.

While I am vehemently against many Islamic practitioners, I don't HATE the Koran. It is mankind who is twisting the words of written documents, to meet their own sick desires.

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
unless you mean an inanimate piece of wood pulp cannot in and of itself attack or harm people... i agree with you there...

"comparable things in Christianity"... that is laughable... only in a state of ignorance could that statement be made.
Not even sure how to respond to this, other than you need to read more about Christianity, my friend. Jesus is wearing a white towel just like the rest of them. And God is certainly no groovy nice dude when it comes to non-Jewish believers.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 03-29-08 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 03-29-08, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Apparently, you haven't read The Torah. Or the simple KJV.
let's enlighten you on something...

Christianity started with Christ you see... Jesus Christ...

hence the Christ part of Christianity... you follow?...

starts with a thing called the 'New Covenant', more widely known as the 'New Testament'...

Judaism is the religion of the Old Testament...

the Torah or simple KJV?... two entirely separate things... the final canonized 1612 King James Version of the Holy Bible, is not the 'Torah'... and the Jewish practitioners of Judaism would have a strong reaction to anyone so poorly informed as to assert that as the case... or a good laugh...

btw, i have read that version of the bible, in whole several times, in the 1612 Old English... i'm quite familiar with it... far more than you are obviously... and the KJV of today is not the original 1612 release, the english of the 1612 makes the research into the languages more plain and direct... to the source languages of Hebrew, Chaldee(or Aramaic), and Greek...

nor does the words of the Torah have to do with the teachings of Christ or Christianity... that is the defining and singular difference between Judaism and Christianity... all you have told me here is you are about as familiar in your understandings of the difference between Judaism and Christianity, as you are with the fact vs. fiction of Islam... superficial and poorly informed understandings at best...
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Who are the Gentiles? And what does the Torah say about non-Jews? What does the KJV say about non-Jews? What did God say to do with them?
well... the Old Testament created a term and concept known as an "alien" in a command from God... a person from outside the country or tribe... seem a familiar term?... we use it to this day, as our country adapted the word and the concept from the biblical source... often these days the word "illegal" is in front of it... the word 'alien' that is...

since someone mentioned Leviticus here in this thread... lets take a direct quote from Leviticus as an example on how to treat an alien amongst the tribe of Israel, as commanded by God...
Lev. 19:33,34
"When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
in the NIV translation... Leviticus 19:33,34
" 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
in the KJV you mentioned...
33And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
this was the idea we adapted as the concept of the alien in the US...

anything else you want to just make up and run with?...

i'm very familiar with the bible and quite familiar with the text of the books of Islam... and i see from your words, very clearly, you are not...

you haven't read the Quran, the Hadith or the Sirah... nor do you understand them... as i said before... i know this... no guessing... this below reveals that beyond a shadow of a doubt...

Originally Posted by The Evil Koran
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
that passage is written to those who have submitted... submitted to allah... "whoever believes in Allah and the Last day"... you don't understand what you are reading there apparently... this is saying what the entire Quran says... "submit and convert, submit and pay a tax under certain circumstances, or die"... belief in allah, or god in that context, and belief in 'the last day' - an important concept of Islam... is the requirement of submission, and thus life... that entire chapter is a chapter on submission and the evil of those who don't...

it is made painfully clear in 2:83 of that chapter... those who have submitted and converted, or paid the tax... will live...

and you provide this with "The Evil Koran" moniker as if you've found some great proof of the peace of Islam?... well... typical...
Originally Posted by 'The Evil Quran' tee hee hee
9:29 You shall fight against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture(Jews and Christians) - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
i would be surprised if you had read the bible in whole, even once...

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Stop watching Fox News, and start reading for yourself.
what is this?... "stop watching Fox news"?... what is that about?... the fact that i was able to clearly see you didn't know what you were talking about, and called you on it?... how does that relate to Fox news?... does anyone who sees through your posts become a 'Fox News Watcher'?...

i guess i can see a continuation of the trend of you just making things up as you go along in that statement too... what a superficial 'sloganeering' job that is... i see through your pretense and poorly informed post and assertions, and that makes me a 'Fox News Watcher' huh?... astounding intellect there... really...

i have read far more on these things than you, to put it simply... and it's painfully obvious...
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Not even sure how to respond to this, other than you need to read more about Christianity, my friend. Jesus is wearing a white towel just like the rest of them. And God is certainly no groovy nice dude when it comes to non-Jewish believers.
so you're still pretending that:

A: you understand the difference between Judaism and Christianity... obviously you don't...

B: that you are familiar with the bible... or even the teachings of Christ...

i'm not fooled... but it's a free country, pretend away... maybe someone else will fall for it... one is born every minute after all...

since you haven't read the books of Islam for yourself... maybe you should listen to the leaders of that religion in every Muslim country on earth from Asia to the Middle East, from Europe to the US and Canada, from South America to Africa... they know what it means... and they preach it every day...

kill every Jew, Christian, Pagan(hindu), and Buddhist until religion is only for Allah... hunt them down and kill them... murder is the highest service to allah... not a declaration of even a particular war there, not a 'during this particular conflict' limitation on that... that order from allah is everlasting and all encompassing... made crystal clear as so in the Quran, the Hadith, and the Sirah... Muhammad himself was a man who committed terrible atrocities against men, women , and children and preached the very same as service to allah...

there is nothing comparable to that anywhere in the bible, an open-ended call for murder as service to God, to kill any and all non Jews until religion is only for God... the fact that you pretend that is so, tells me how little you know on the subject... and the direct polar opposite of those sentiments are in the words of Christ... which, again i'll remind you, the words of Christ and his immediate followers are what Christianity is, and is based on... Christ was a man of peace who was killed violently, again a polar opposite...
Luke 6:27,28
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

1 Peter 3:9
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.

Matt 5:38-48
38 ”You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 ”You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
there are no similar concepts as the above in the writings and beliefs of Islam...

maybe you can't tell the difference between the two, but i can, many others can too...

there are more than a few converts to Christianity from Islam, that write books trying to inform the west about the truth of the Islamic religion and the source books...

when i see mindless drivel like "less than 1% of the Muslims in the world are about terrorism"... or "the Quran is about peace"... i know that is a person who is ignorant of the subject matter...
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Old 03-29-08, 05:41 PM
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Wow, I'm glad someone took the time to write that out. Clearly DVD Polizei does not know much of the teachings of Christ, or of the Christian faith.
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Old 03-29-08, 09:15 PM
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Dr Mabuse, very good read. Thank you.
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Old 03-29-08, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse
let's enlighten you on something...

Christianity started with Christ you see... Jesus Christ...

hence the Christ part of Christianity... you follow?...
For values of "began" equal to "the main character of the New Testament is supposed to be the same guy who demanded his followers commit war crimes in his name in the Old Testament."
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Old 03-29-08, 10:09 PM
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Eh, things change. If the good Lord didn't change his message, people would be on his ass about how stubborn and old-fashioned he is. For the omnipotent and omniscient, life's a losing game.

When you remove the supernatural and look at it as a simple values system, the Bible, Old and New, makes an awful lot of sense when kept in historical context.

EDIT: To stay on subject, the Koran makes no such sense; it could use a New Testament of its own, whether written by Muhammed II or Petraeus the Almighty.

Last edited by Hank Ringworm; 03-29-08 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 03-29-08, 10:21 PM
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Dr Mabuse,

As we know and I have even provided evidence or elaborated about in many posts over the last several years (you might read those) about Muslims in general, Muslims are passive in their responses to attacks against non-Muslims. Of course I'm not saying Islam is a religion of peace, but what I am saying, is Islam does have scripture which mentions peace, just like our Jesus text.

And I'm not sure why you think a person has to submit to the Koran before it applies to them as a unique thing, because Christianity implies submission as well. Does Christianity specifically say if you belong to Islam or any religion other than Christ's Religion, you're going to heaven?

I can also give you several quotes from the Koran which would match your quotes but you seem to think there's a difference in terms of submission. I disagree. Submission is a very important part of Christianity.

Now, we could argue that submission in terms of Christianity, is a submission to Jesus Christ, and Islam's version of submission is to Allah. Right? So, what's the difference? I have to submit to Christ to be validated by his Word, right? If I'm a non-believer, how can I be saved as a Christian? Because if this was not the case, we would automatically be just fine. Right?

We need to attack the practitioners NOT the religion. The practitioners are the ones dictating the rules and making up more as long as they are ordained by the church (using a Christian phrase here) or a Fatwa, which is severely not good. And I cannot emphasize this more. Because to do otherwise is very dangerous, and we become like those practitioners who would want to annihilate us. The problem is with the practitioners of the world of religion, not necessarily the religion itself.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 03-29-08 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 03-30-08, 08:59 AM
  #24  
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it's the context of the submission Polizei... many things need a thorough knowledge of context to be reasoned with, on, and about...

the passage you quoted from 'The Heifer'(more correct translation i think), is stating only those who have converted to Islam have nothing to fear... and they damn well mean "fear us killing you as soon as we possibly can", AND hellfire... a dual meaning that is rather constant in the source books of Islam... 'we will torture you and kill you and then send you to hell to be tortured' is the idea... it is spelled out clearly...

and in the Quran even the concept of hell itself is a celebrated idea of torture for the 'unbelievers'... it's something in the very text of the Quran and the other books that is lusted over and reveled in... made reference to in repeated ways by phrases like this...
Quran 4:56
As for those who disbelieve in Our communications(do not believe in Islam), We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment
see that 'lusty' approach... that literally means we will burn you alive, which the Muslim world actually has done for more than 1000 years, as well as the dualistic meaning of the changing of the skin to be burned again which follows into the 'torture on earth literally to revel in the fact that you go to hell to be tortured some more'... far more Christians were themselves burned alive for their faith... Christ never taught to do that to other people... even the old 'blood and guts' God of the Old Testament lamented the torture of people with fire, in the most clear case a religious practice of a thing known as 'Molech', a large metal statue with it's hands heated to red hot to sacrifice people and burn children on... the God of the Old Testament said clearly "such a terrible thing never entered My mind"...

and on the larger concept of a place of punishment in Islam... this is not the approach to the concept of a burning trash heap, or a place known as 'Gehenna', which was an almost perpetually burning trash dump outside of Jerusalem, and was mentioned by Christ... he mentioned it not in a lusty reveling of 'i'm gonna LOVE you getting tortured there' in any way, shape, or form... it was a warning, and almost pleading, to NOT go that way... you can say they both, Christ and Islam, refer to a place of punishment, almost every form of spirituality or religion does... but the context between the teachings of Christ as opposed to the teachings of Islam are polar opposites on the subject...

and back to the context of 'submission' in the books and religion of Islam... it is not a 'submit yourself to allah' that is in any way similar to "take up your cross and follow Me" of Christ...
Hadith 4:52:196
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law(the exceptions of which means you still kill them AND take their property, and there are a LOT of exceptions), and his accounts will be with Allah, either to punish him or to forgive him.(unless those pesky 'exceptions' come up, which is EASY for them to find one, and then you are dead anyway)"
it is 'convert to Islam or die', or under certain circumstances 'pay us money and make yourself and your property in subjugation to our literal worldly government, or die'... both at the same time...

that is not even a scant reflection of the meanings of the teachings of Christ... or even of the old 'blood and guts' days of the Old Testament' where a war was raged to reclaim the holy land... but it had a beginning, middle, and end, and the land to be conquered was clearly defined before hand... even in that case there is not even a partial similarity to 'search the earth and kill everyone who doesn't convert to Islam'... there simply isn't... there was a defined worldly war in the Old Testament, not an eternal command to kill any and all and take what they have unless they convert or submit... the passage of the treatment of strangers was given before those wars even started... and continued into the established lands of the 13 tribes of Israel in the land, (one stayed south of the Jordan so most people only know of 12 tribes)...

the idea of submission to Christ is not to kill and conquer and take people's possessions unless they submit... the polar opposite... He taught to follow Him no doubt, but the context is so completely different there is no comparison...

Mark 10:17
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'" "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth
that is the Christian idea of submission... and there is nothing comparable to that anywhere in Islam...

Last edited by Dr Mabuse; 03-30-08 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 03-30-08, 11:58 AM
  #25  
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good posts Dr Mabuse.
To simplify it for people you only have to look at one thing: the behavior of the founder of the 2 religions in question.
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