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Bush proposes "Pell Grants for Kids"

Old 01-29-08, 11:16 PM
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Bush proposes "Pell Grants for Kids"

I oppose all federal involvement in education.

But this editorial raises a great point about hypocrisy.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1201...n_commentaries

Those Pell Vouchers

January 30, 2008; Page A16

If unrestricted federal education grants are kosher for college students, why not for grades K-12 too? That's the question President Bush is asking with his cheeky proposal Monday to create Pell Grants for Kids, a program to offer $300 million in scholarships that low-income students could use to attend the school of their choice.

Pell grants for college are among the most popular ways to spend money in Washington. Over the past seven years, Members from both sides of the aisle have lined up to expand the number and size of these grants that students can use to attend the college or university of their choice, public or private. Last year, 5.3 million students received a total of $14 billion in Pell grants, up from 4.3 million students receiving $8.8 billion at the start of the Bush Presidency. However, what no one wants to admit is that Pell grants are essentially "vouchers," with the decision about where to spend the money in the hands of parents and students.

Mr. Bush's proposal would give Pell grants to students stuck in public secondary and elementary schools that have failed to meet federal testing benchmarks for five years running or that suffer high drop out rates. The bulk of that money would go to inner-city students who otherwise have little chance of going to college or even finishing high school. In the same way, the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship program has given 2,600 of the poorest students in Washington a better chance at a good education.

Neither of these programs is getting anywhere in the current Congress, however, and the new Pell grant proposal was immediately denounced by Democrats. The reason, as ever, is because K-12 education is dominated by a union monopoly that can't abide parental choice. Lucky for students the same unions don't yet run American universities.
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Old 01-30-08, 06:39 AM
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How exactly are minors going to take out a loan?
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Old 01-30-08, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
The democratic party should go extinct just on account of this.
I'd probably think the same thing if everything I "knew" about the Democratic Party was what I read in the Wall Street Journal op-ed page.
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Old 01-30-08, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
How exactly are minors going to take out a loan?
Pell Grants are just that - grants. Free money for keeping your grades up - got them all 4 years of college. As long as you turn in your FAFSA on time and don't make above a certain amount = $profit$
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Old 01-30-08, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
How exactly are minors going to take out a loan?
These are grants, not loans.
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Old 01-30-08, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
The democratic party should go extinct just on account of this.
Many voters are happy with sending their kids to horrible schools. They put more thought into selecting a new car than they put into selecting a school for their children.
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Old 01-30-08, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by grundle
Many voters are happy with sending their kids to horrible schools. They put more thought into selecting a new car than they put into selecting a school for their children.
...so we should give them money?
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Old 01-30-08, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by grundle
Many voters are happy with sending their kids to horrible schools. They put more thought into selecting a new car than they put into selecting a school for their children.
At least with a car you can research it accurately and read reviews. Just try to go onto eBay and see the going rate for your school.
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Old 01-30-08, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by orangecrush18
At least with a car you can research it accurately and read reviews. Just try to go onto eBay and see the going rate for your school.
There's a lot of information about public schools available on the web, but you have to know where to look.
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Old 01-30-08, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
The democratic party should go extinct just on account of this.
What a well thought out, reasoned argument.
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Old 01-30-08, 07:46 PM
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Awesome. Let's send losers and idiots to college. Like we don't have enough already. I can already see the SUV's with 56" chrome spinners...and a sticker on the back windshield that says:

"tHANKz, BooSH"
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Old 01-30-08, 07:53 PM
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This is one issue that I just cannot understand the almost blind support of so many black people for democrats. The education and school voucher issue is one that is very important to people forced to sent thier kids to poor public schools. The dems have fought this issue tooth and nail to preserve the domain of one of their main contributors: the teacher union.
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Old 01-30-08, 07:58 PM
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College is something you have to pay for, K-12 is paid for by taxes so no grants needed. Simple.

Furthermore, many have to support themselves while going to college, unlike K-12, so that is an additional burden.

Last edited by porieux; 01-30-08 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 01-30-08, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
This is one issue that I just cannot understand the almost blind support of so many black people for democrats. The education and school voucher issue is one that is very important to people forced to sent thier kids to poor public schools. The dems have fought this issue tooth and nail to preserve the domain of one of their main contributors: the teacher union.
There's a very good reason that blacks vote 90% or so for Democrats. They perceive, correctly IMO, that the Democrats represent their interests better than the GOP does.

Once upon a time a Republican received 25% of the black vote - RMN. Why -because they felt he was somewhat attuned to the issues that blacks cared about.

They haven't thought that with Ford, Reagan, Bush 1 & 2 - rightfully so.
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Old 01-30-08, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Draven
...so we should give them money?
No, we shouldn't. I said that I am against this proposal.
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Old 01-30-08, 10:12 PM
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This is the kind of thing that only a government school teacher would do:


http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....5b3bed11.html

Lewisville teen's hand sanitizer gel sniff 'not a crime'

09:29 PM CST on Saturday, January 26, 2008

By WENDY HUNDLEY / The Dallas Morning News

Denton County prosecutors decided Friday to wash their hands of a case against a Lewisville middle school student accused of trying to get high by sniffing his teacher's hand sanitizer.

Three days after filing delinquency charges against the youth, prosecutors did a turnaround and decided that the common cleaning gel is not an abusive inhalant
under the Texas Health and Safety Code.

"It's not a crime. Hand sanitizer does not fall within that statute," said Jamie Beck, first assistant district attorney in Denton County. "The police agency brought it up mistakenly thinking it was."

Richard Ortiz, the father of the seventh-grader, welcomed the news late Friday but expressed frustration that the case, which began in October, went as far as it did.

Mr. Ortiz, who asked that his 14-year-old son's name not be published, said the boy was embarrassed and humiliated by the charge. He described his son as a well-behaved teenager who makes good grades.

"They were going to prosecute my son," Mr. Ortiz said. "He still has that stigma. People know him as a drug user, and he's not."

Mr. Ortiz's attorney, J. Michael Price II of Dallas, said he believes that the Denton County prosecutor's office acted quickly to drop the case once he brought the matter to the attention of Ms. Beck on Friday morning.

"I told her I didn't think a law had been violated," Mr. Price said. "She made the appropriate decision without a lot of delay."

Mr. Ortiz said the family's ordeal began Oct. 19, when his son picked up a bottle of hand sanitizer from the desk of his fifth-period reading teacher at Killian Middle School in Lewisville. He rubbed the gel on his hands and smelled it.

In the view of school officials, the boy "inhaled heavily," according to Mr. Ortiz, who said his son sniffed the cleanser "because it smelled good."

The youth was sent to the principal's office, and the Lewisville police officer assigned to the school began investigating.


"The event happened at the campus," said Dean Tackett, a spokesman for the Lewisville Independent School District. "But once the police took it over, it was a police investigation. They decide if there are charges and what kind of charges."

The teen was required to serve a brief in-school suspension and was also fingerprinted and photographed at the Lewisville Police Department. He returned to regular classes at the school, including one with the teacher whose sanitizer he sniffed.

Mr. Ortiz said he believed the matter was over until Tuesday when he was served with a petition charging his son with delinquency for inhaling the hand sanitizer to "induce a condition of intoxication, hallucination and elation."

He said he couldn't believe that his son would have to go to court for smelling hand sanitizer. "I think it's ludicrous," said Mr. Ortiz, who blames overzealous police and prosecutors for initially pursuing the case.

Joni Eddy, assistant police chief in Lewisville, said Friday that hand sanitizer has become a popular inhalant. "That is the latest thing to huff," she said.

She said officers felt they were acting properly when they pursued the case against Mr. Ortiz's son under a complex state statute governing volatile chemicals that could be abused.

"The charge said he was using the product other than its intended use," she said. "Huffing hand sanitizer is certainly using it for something other than its intended use."

Hand sanitizers usually contain a high percentage of ethyl alcohol, a flammable liquid used in a wide range of industrial products and alcoholic beverages.

Shirley Simson, a spokeswoman for the National Institute on Drug Abuse in Washington, said in an e-mail that the agency had no data about hand sanitizers being abused as inhalants. She noted, however, that there have been news reports of some people drinking hand sanitizers for their alcohol content.
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Old 01-30-08, 10:13 PM
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So...The money from these Pell grants are my tax dollars?
If that's the case then this would be one of the only things Bush has ever done that I agree with.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
There's a very good reason that blacks vote 90% or so for Democrats. They perceive, correctly IMO, that the Democrats represent their interests better than the GOP does.
Overwhelmingly black people support school vouchers and the choice that goes along with it. Overwhelmingly, democrats at all levels have opposed vouchers to protect mediocraty of public schools and more importantly for dem pols, their political contributors, the teachers union. The black voters are incorrectly perceiving that dems are representing their values on education.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Overwhelmingly black people support school vouchers and the choice that goes along with it. Overwhelmingly, democrats at all levels have opposed vouchers to protect mediocraty of public schools and more importantly for dem pols, their political contributors, the teachers union. The black voters are incorrectly perceiving that dems are representing their values on education.
What he said.

edited to add: I do think that grants will do little to improve the education situation. I like the idea of having the money we give schools for each student assigned to each specific student so that wherever they choose to go gets the money for them. Schools would improve rather quickly or close due to mass exodus.

Last edited by orangecrush; 01-31-08 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:26 AM
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Is this really any different than school vouchers? With all the talk about sending kids to faith-based schools it sounded like this was just an excuse to divert tax dollars to religious schools instead of public schools. I could be wrong.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:37 AM
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I do feel there should be some kind of grant or tax deduction for those that decide to send their kids to private schools. I think a tax deduction makes more sense.

Plus I would rather see most of the money go to more grants to college folks.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:45 AM
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I don't think you'd see a "mass exodus" from bad schools with this type of program. What you would see is that the few students and parents who are motivated enough to try and attend a better school -- but unable to afford it -- leaving for those schools. Which is a good thing, IMHO.
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Old 01-31-08, 05:34 PM
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I think private schools should be abolished. Everyone needs to work together to improve public schools, period.
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Old 01-31-08, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by porieux
College is something you have to pay for, K-12 is paid for by taxes so no grants needed. Simple.

Furthermore, many have to support themselves while going to college, unlike K-12, so that is an additional burden.
State universities are subsidized by taxes as well. I believe Georgia doesn't charge tuition for in-state students going to state universities.

Not saying I agree with the idea, but I don't think your reasoning is a death blow to it.
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Old 01-31-08, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by porieux
I think private schools should be abolished. Everyone needs to work together to improve public schools, period.
Then you first need to abolish the teacher's union. They are always the biggest obstacle.
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