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2008 Presidential Election (part VII)

Old 01-17-08, 02:44 PM
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2008 Presidential Election (part VII)

Continued from http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=522011
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Old 01-17-08, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenMonkey
Obama voted against the flag-burning amendment, unlike Hillary. That puts him IMO in a much better category for civil freedoms.

I'll have to take a hard look at Obama should he be the Dem nominee - he might be pretty strong on civil liberties - at least the 1st and the 4th-6th protections.

The other key is his foreign policy. I only wish he were actually in the Senate when the Iraq vote was taken so I could have seen whether he took the chicken-out dont-want-to-look-soft-on-defense approach like Hillary, Kerry and others did. He said he wouldn't have voted for war, but that's easy to say. This issue is going to be far harder to gauge.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk
Blue-Dress dems just cannot stand to let every vote count.


Which party fought to stop the recounts in Florida in 2000?

cinten,

I wouldn't go there if I were you.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
I'll have to take a hard look at Obama should he be the Dem nominee - he might be pretty strong on civil liberties - at least the 1st and the 4th-6th protections.

The other key is his foreign policy. I only wish he were actually in the Senate when the Iraq vote was taken so I could have seen whether he took the chicken-out dont-want-to-look-soft-on-defense approach like Hillary, Kerry and others did. He said he wouldn't have voted for war, but that's easy to say. This issue is going to be far harder to gauge.
And he was so damn critical of Hillary's vote on the Iran resolulution when he didn't even bother to show up to vote. That is an indication of just how critical he vote that really was.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
I believe McCain is far more dangerous than Giuliani or Huckabee in the foreign policy area.

I believe that he very well might provoke a war with Iran, for instance.
It takes two to tango.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wishbon3
It takes two to tango.
What's that supposed to mean?
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Old 01-17-08, 02:52 PM
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A person's vote on the War in Iraq (the authorization to use force) would have very little influence on whether I would vote for him/her.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:53 PM
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I think Rudy and Hucks are just as capable of provoking a war with Iran as McCain.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:55 PM
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I don't believe so.
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Old 01-17-08, 02:56 PM
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Based on the last debate ALL of the Republican candidates (save Paul) are willing to provoke a war with Iran. It's about our SAFETY after all
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Old 01-17-08, 03:01 PM
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What's wrong with a war on Iran? There are a lot of people there unhappy with their government... we would probably be greeted as libertarians.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:02 PM
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I thought Huckabee's position was that he would open up face-to-face negotiations with Iran to resolve the issues.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
What's that supposed to mean?
Would it not be provocation for Iran to close the Straits of Hormuz -- you know, your Kobayashi Maru test of interventionist foreign policy?
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Old 01-17-08, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
What's wrong with a war on Iran? There are a lot of people there unhappy with their government... we would probably be greeted as libertarians.
You mean librarians, right?
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Old 01-17-08, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
we would probably be greeted as libertarians.
Librarians, even.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:07 PM
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Just to make this a slam dunk, we should probably enlist the help of the Liberians.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:08 PM
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Mike Huckabee:

Change tone of Bush's arrogant bunker mentality

The United States, as the world's only superpower, is less vulnerable to military defeat. But it is more vulnerable to the animosity of other countries.

American foreign policy needs to change its tone and attitude, open up, and reach out. The Bush administration's arrogant bunker mentality has been counterproductive at home and abroad. My administration will recognize that the United States' main fight today does not pit us against the world but pits the world against the terrorists.

Source: America's Priorities in the War on Terror: Foreign Affairs Jan 1, 2008
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Old 01-17-08, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wishbon3
Would it not be provocation for Iran to close the Straits of Hormuz -- you know, your Kobayashi Maru test of interventionist foreign policy?
That example is Iran provoking.

We're talking U. S. doing something stupid and provoking a confrontation.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
That example is Iran provoking.

We're talking U. S. doing something stupid and provoking a confrontation.
Ergo, it takes two to tango.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Mike Huckabee:

Change tone of Bush's arrogant bunker mentality

The United States, as the world's only superpower, is less vulnerable to military defeat. But it is more vulnerable to the animosity of other countries.

American foreign policy needs to change its tone and attitude, open up, and reach out. The Bush administration's arrogant bunker mentality has been counterproductive at home and abroad. My administration will recognize that the United States' main fight today does not pit us against the world but pits the world against the terrorists.

Source: America's Priorities in the War on Terror: Foreign Affairs Jan 1, 2008

So is it your belief that his "gates of hell" talk is just that - talk - for political consumption. I might be willing to buy that.
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Old 01-17-08, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
And he was so damn critical of Hillary's vote on the Iran resolulution when he didn't even bother to show up to vote. That is an indication of just how critical he vote that really was.
I wish he had showed up and voted against it, but the vote was 76-22 and he went on the public record as opposing the resolution. The fact that he missed the vote is, for all intents and purposes, a technicality.

As for the 2002 Iraq vote, Obama made contemporaneous public statements opposing the AUMF. Sure, it's one thing to publicly come out against the war when you're a U.S. Senator and another when you're an Illinois State Senator, so it's not a perfect fit. But there's at least some evidence that he wouldn't have been a chicken-out war opponent: the fact that he stood up and opposed the war at a time when the vote was in the future and the war was relatively popular.
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Old 01-17-08, 04:01 PM
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He didn't really mince words with those statements, either.

Originally Posted by http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18363
Standing in Chicago’s Federal Plaza, Obama declared, “What I am opposed to is the attempt by potential hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty state, a drop in the medium income—to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone thorough the worst month since the Great Depression. That’s what I am opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war, a war based not on reason, but on passion, not on principle, but on politics.”

Obama went on to explain that “I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undermined cost, with undetermined consequence of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequence. I know that an invasion of Iraq without clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than the best, impulses of the Arab world and strengthen the recruitment arm of al Qaeda.”

Obama wrote in “The Audacity of Hope” that although he believed Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons, coveted nuclear arms, scoffed at UN resolutions and butchered his own people, he sensed “the threat Saddam posed was not imminent” and “the Administration’s rationales for war were flimsy and ideologically driven.”
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Old 01-17-08, 04:04 PM
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Let's not make excuses for Obama.

He didn't show up to vote.

It took some nerve for him to be critical of Hillary, when apparently he didn't feel the vote was important enough for his presence.

That's the problem. Not too many, and certainly not the media, are all that critical with Obama. But they hammer the hell out of the other candidates.

One wonders why??

I know. There are 2 reasons for it - both related I would imagine.
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Old 01-17-08, 04:12 PM
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classicman -- If Obama had showed up for the vote and the final tally had been 76-23, what would the difference have been?
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Old 01-17-08, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
classicman -- If Obama had showed up for the vote and the final tally had been 76-23, what would the difference have been?
If someone wants to vote for Obama but they don't feel like going out, and the final tally is just one different, I'm sure that won't matter much either. That should be his platform!
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