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Los Angeles Wants To Get Tough On (Muslim) Terrorists

Old 11-09-07, 02:47 PM
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Los Angeles Wants To Get Tough On (Muslim) Terrorists

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/...s/lapd_muslims

Los Angeles police plan to map Muslims

LOS ANGELES - Civil rights advocates criticized plans by the Los Angeles Police Department to map the city's Muslim communities, calling it racial profiling.

The LAPD's counterterrorism bureau plans to identify Muslim enclaves in order to determine which might be likely to become isolated and susceptible to "violent, ideologically based extremism," said Deputy Chief Michael P. Downing on Thursday.

"We want to know where the Pakistanis, Iranians and Chechens are so we can reach out to those communities," said Downing, who heads the counterterrorism bureau.

Downing said the plan is still in its early stages, but the LAPD wants to work with a Muslim partner and intends to have the data assembled by the University of Southern California's Center for Risk and Economic Analysis.

Downing testified about the plan before a U.S. Senate committee on Oct. 30.

In his testimony, Downing said his bureau wanted to "take a deeper look at the history, demographics, language, culture, ethnic breakdown, socioeconomic status and social interactions" of the city's Muslim communities.

There are an estimated 500,000 Muslims in Los Angeles, Orange and Riverside counties.

On Thursday, several Muslim groups and the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California sent Downing a letter expressing "grave concerns" about the program.

"Singling out individuals for investigation, surveillance, and data-gathering based on their religion constitutes religious profiling that is just as unlawful, ill-advised and deeply offensive as racial profiling," said the letter.

It was signed by representatives of the ACLU of Southern California; Muslim Advocates, a national association of Muslim lawyers; the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California and the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

The plan "basically turns the LAPD officers into religious political analysts, while their role is to fight crime and enforce the laws," said Hussam Ayloush, head of the Los Angeles chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, who signed the letter.

However, another group, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, is considering working with the LAPD on the project.

"We will work with the LAPD and give them input, while at the same time making sure that people's civil liberties are protected," said Salam al-Marayati, the council's executive director.
If you've got nothing to hide, then what's the beef?
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Old 11-09-07, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Franchot
If you've got nothing to hide, then what's the beef?

No matter what issue it's used in, this statement is easily the lamest ever made.
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Old 11-09-07, 02:59 PM
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If they have nothing to hide, then why the masks?

And stating Islam is a religion of peace, is easily the lamest statement ever made.
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Old 11-09-07, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
No matter what issue it's used in, this statement is easily the lamest ever made.
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Old 11-09-07, 03:22 PM
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The idea that racial profiling is bad, is one of the dumbest things in teh world. It leads to little old grandmas being getting the random, special search at the airport.

If you have a group that is intent on causing people harm, and they are all over 6' tall, do you search midgets just to make everyone feel equal?

If a witness says a 6' black guy mugged him and ran west, should the police search all the 6' asian guys running west as well?

False arrest, illegal wire tapping, etc. is something totally different, but to not actually use race when making a profile of potential threats? That is absolutely stupid.
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Old 11-09-07, 05:23 PM
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How does a liberal Western democracy deal with a cultural group (or at least a very sizeable minority within that group) that freely prefers a value system that is at odds with liberal Western values?

Well, one of the main ways is to pretend otherwise. To pretend that that cultural group doesn't REALLY prefer their own traditional values. George Bush from the right adopted this attitude with the invasion of Iraq--"we'll be embraced as liberators". The Europeans from the left also believed this--"let's bring millions of Muslim immigrants into our countries, because OF COURSE they will want to assimilate and adopt our values!" I don't think either of those approaches have been too successful.

Do we support democracy, if a democratic vote brings Hamas into power? Do we deny the value of democracy, and support a totalitarian repression of Islamism? Do we just cut off all relations with fundamentalist Islam? That hasn't worked out too well with regards to Iran. Do we continue to do lots of business with them, but leave their culture alone? That's resulted in a wealthy Saudi Arabia, funding Islamism worldwide.

So, how does a liberal West deal with not just an anti-liberal POLITICAL movement---we've dealt with lots of those---but rather with an anti-liberal CULTURE consisting of millions of people? I don't know the answer, but I think it is THE question of the 21st century.
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Old 11-09-07, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
The idea that racial profiling is bad, is one of the dumbest things in teh world.
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Old 11-09-07, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
The idea that racial profiling is bad, is one of the dumbest things in teh world. It leads to little old grandmas being getting the random, special search at the airport.

If you have a group that is intent on causing people harm, and they are all over 6' tall, do you search midgets just to make everyone feel equal?

If a witness says a 6' black guy mugged him and ran west, should the police search all the 6' asian guys running west as well?

False arrest, illegal wire tapping, etc. is something totally different, but to not actually use race when making a profile of potential threats? That is absolutely stupid.
Nothing more needs to be said on this subject. Well done.
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Old 11-09-07, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
If a witness says a 6' black guy mugged him and ran west, should the police search all the 6' asian guys running west as well?
No, but if a witness says it was a 6' guy in a mask, and the police limited their search to black guys, that's a problem. Someone's race does not predispose them to any type of behavior. Someone's value system, reflective of the environment and the culture in which they were raised, DOES predispose them to certain types of behavior. I do concede that sometimes race and culture are tightly interwoven, but I would still draw a distinction between race and culture.

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 11-09-07 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 11-09-07, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
No, but if a witness says it was a 6' guy in a mask, and the police limited their search to black guys, that's a problem.
Absolutely. But I think we know the ethnicity of the bulk of people who have threatened us with terrorism in the name of Allah.
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Old 11-09-07, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Absolutely. But I think we know the ethnicity of the bulk of people who have threatened us with terrorism in the name of Allah.
Right, but I would make the distinction that the relevant link they share is Islam, not the fact that they're Arab.
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Old 11-09-07, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
How does a liberal Western democracy deal with a cultural group (or at least a very sizeable minority within that group) that freely prefers a value system that is at odds with liberal Western values?
Liberal Western democracies usually embrace relativism. The side effect is that those democracies are held captive to their relativistic beliefs and unable to draw a line. To do so, would be an admission that there IS something that can be absolute ("the line", in this case). If a line IS drawn, it is usually too late or too weak to have any substance.


Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
Well, one of the main ways is to pretend otherwise. To pretend that that cultural group doesn't REALLY prefer their own traditional values. George Bush from the right adopted this attitude with the invasion of Iraq--"we'll be embraced as liberators". The Europeans from the left also believed this--"let's bring millions of Muslim immigrants into our countries, because OF COURSE they will want to assimilate and adopt our values!" I don't think either of those approaches have been too successful.
Did they (Bush and Europeans) really believe this or is it just something they said because it sounded good to those who did not support those positions?

There is so much disingenuousness and deception in politics that it is highly doubtful that it was an honestly held belief.

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
Do we support democracy, if a democratic vote brings Hamas into power? Do we deny the value of democracy, and support a totalitarian repression of Islamism? Do we just cut off all relations with fundamentalist Islam? That hasn't worked out too well with regards to Iran. Do we continue to do lots of business with them, but leave their culture alone? That's resulted in a wealthy Saudi Arabia, funding Islamism worldwide.
That's where the dishonesty manifests itself again. The US was not interested in democracy in Iraq... it was interested in having a government that could be controlled. Democracy is just the sugar coating on an otherwise bitter pill.


Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
So, how does a liberal West deal with not just an anti-liberal POLITICAL movement---we've dealt with lots of those---but rather with an anti-liberal CULTURE consisting of millions of people? I don't know the answer, but I think it is THE question of the 21st century.
The answer is that it (liberal west) doesn't deal with it. It allows the anti-liberal cuture to infiltrate liberal western societies and disolve them from within.... over a prolonged period of time.

The anti-liberal culture has certain absolute positions that are concrete and unchangeable. The relativism of liberal western society will bend to that unstoppable and unchangeable movement.
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Old 11-09-07, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Liberal Western democracies usually embrace relativism. The side effect is that those democracies are held captive to their relativistic beliefs and unable to draw a line. To do so, would be an admission that there IS something that can be absolute ("the line", in this case). If a line IS drawn, it is usually too late or too weak to have any substance.
.
Good post, sracer, and unfortunately I agree with most of your assessments (or at least I think they're extremely likely). The only thing I would disagree with you on is in regards to the Bush administration's motive in Iraq. One of the central themes of neoconservatism is the advocacy of using US power (including military) to forcibly impose western-style democracies. I think those guys were indeed true believers. I think the reality that democratic processes have resulted in the success of anti-western Islamist parties throughout the Middle East have caused them to backtrack back into reality, though.
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Old 11-09-07, 08:11 PM
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I love the general notion in this thread that all Muslims are radical anti-America, anti-West types. If that were true, America wouldn't exist anymore. There are something in the neighborhood of 2 BILLION Muslims in the world. Obviously not all of them are radical anti-Americans. If even 10% of those people were radicals, the world would be in flames. All this Muslim bashing just doesn't stand up to reason.
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Old 11-09-07, 08:20 PM
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Well, it was most certainly a very small percentage of Germans who were fervent supporters of the Nazi goals to conquer the world and exterminate Jews.

It really depends on how you define 'radical'. Many people take comfort in the indisputable fact that it's an incredibly tiny percentage of Muslims who actually support jihadi violence. I would suggest that a more relevant and important question is "how many Muslims worldwide would prefer to live under Sharia Law than under liberal Western legal systems?"

It's not a tiny minority.
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Old 11-09-07, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
I love the general notion in this thread that all Muslims are radical anti-America, anti-West types. If that were true, America wouldn't exist anymore. There are something in the neighborhood of 2 BILLION Muslims in the world. Obviously not all of them are radical anti-Americans. If even 10% of those people were radicals, the world would be in flames. All this Muslim bashing just doesn't stand up to reason.
Most don't have access to transportation and couldn't afford to come to the US to do damage. Second, they are doing damage to their own communities world wide.

Third, as to the world in flames scenario, how many hot spots are currently related to religion of a particular faith we're talking about? Last time I checked, we don't have Mormons or Baptists blowing themselves up around the world, touting their peaceful Lord.
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Old 11-09-07, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
Well, it was most certainly a very small percentage of Germans who were fervent supporters of the Nazi goals to conquer the world and exterminate Jews.

It really depends on how you define 'radical'. Many people take comfort in the indisputable fact that it's an incredibly tiny percentage of Muslims who actually support jihadi violence. I would suggest that a more relevant and important question is "how many Muslims worldwide would prefer to live under Sharia Law than under liberal Western legal systems?"

It's not a tiny minority.


Nor should the inability of that sizeable minority to achieve their goals be mistaken for a willingness to coexist wonderfully and peacefully with the West.






(By the way, I don't believe there are that many Muslims in the world, and a overwhelming majority live in a few places.)
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Old 11-09-07, 10:07 PM
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Just as I would want to know about the affluent communities of town if a serial killer wrote a note saying "I'm going to kill all the rich people in City City", I want to know muslim areas for terrorist-related reasons.

Good idea.
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Old 11-09-07, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
Right, but I would make the distinction that the relevant link they share is Islam, not the fact that they're Arab.
Why not put both into the profile? Profiles aren't perfect, but they keep you from wasting time by putting the most resources into the most likely areas.
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Old 11-09-07, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
I love the general notion in this thread that all Muslims are radical anti-America, anti-West types. If that were true, America wouldn't exist anymore. There are something in the neighborhood of 2 BILLION Muslims in the world. Obviously not all of them are radical anti-Americans. If even 10% of those people were radicals, the world would be in flames. All this Muslim bashing just doesn't stand up to reason.
I did not see the notion put forward by anyone in this thread that all Muslims are radical anti-Americans. Obviously it is on your mind, biggot.

Seriously, who has said that?

Here's a shocker for you. There are nearly as many Christians in the world. If they were all clinic bombing anti-abortionists, there wouldn't be a clinic left to bomb. But if you are an agency and you hear about a potential bombing of a clinic, do you think you should spend as much time on the Atheist groups as the religious ones? Maybe you would. I wouldn't, because it would be a waste of time. I know of no clinic bombings that have happened by Atheist organizations. That is a profile. It makes catching bad guys more efficient. It isn't inherently evil. It has to be held in check. But you don't throw the baby out with the bath water just so you can go around saying what a great non-bigot you are. That's stupid.
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Old 11-09-07, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
I love the general notion in this thread that all Muslims are radical anti-America, anti-West types. If that were true, America wouldn't exist anymore. There are something in the neighborhood of 2 BILLION Muslims in the world. Obviously not all of them are radical anti-Americans. If even 10% of those people were radicals, the world would be in flames. All this Muslim bashing just doesn't stand up to reason.
I have just as many minority friends (muslims included) as I do white friends. I don't tend to stereotype, but I understand why LA is doing this. Being that there are 2 billion muslims in the world, even if the percentage of radicals was miniscule (say 0.001%), it would still result in 20,000 American hating foreigners who want to kill us. Remember......9/11 only took 19 people.
I'm willing to bet the percentage is a lot higher than my example being we are constantly being demonized in their media.
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Old 11-10-07, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by wabio
Remember......9/11 only took 19 people.

More people die every year from snake bite than from terrorism. The deaths on 9/11 are miniscule in comparison to even some of the more obscure causes of death around the globe. To demonize an entire religion over such a relatively small number of lost American lives is nothing short of absurd.

My point here is that the frenzy to castigate all Muslims in a bid to "keep people safe" is over reaction of the most egregious sort.

Furthermore, what happens when the next terrorist attack is carried out by someone who's NOT a Muslim?
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Old 11-10-07, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
More people die every year from snake bite than from terrorism.
10 to 15 people a year die from snakebite in the US per annum. Tell me this again in about 300 years.
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Old 11-10-07, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
More people die every year from snake bite than from terrorism.
I'm not sure if you're really cognizant of the degree to which many countries are currently engaged with fundamentalist Muslim violence.

Here's a list of attacks by militant Islam in just the last two months:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

And to be clear, this list does not include any actions by the official military of any Islamic country, it covers only the actions of Islamic militants.

And from that site (that lists its sources):

* More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

* Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

* More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

I'm just not clear as to your reasoning that these things shouldn't be taken seriously and condemned.
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Old 11-10-07, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Out of Bounds
Furthermore, what happens when the next terrorist attack is carried out by someone who's NOT a Muslim?
Uhhhhh, you adjust the profile?
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