CRM114

Nukes are making a comeback. I'm not sure if there are any laws banning the building of nuke plants. Perhaps your back yard is available though?

kvrdave

Mine is.

And it is not the laws, it is the environmentalists.

CRM114

Those pesky environmentalists!

Its more like "normal people."

kvrdave

They aren't the entire problem. There is price fixing. But even if you fix all the other parts of the problem, drilling for more oil would be a great part of the solution. Tar sands and oil shales are another. There is no shortage of oil, and won't be for more than a few centuries.

CRM114

There is enough oil in the latter that drilling in ANWR is unnecessary. Except to oil companies who can make a quick but temporary buck off of it.

kvrdave

It's a money grab. I've watched them whenever someone tries to put up a new power plant. I've watched them try to get dams removed. I've watched them fight solar panel projects and wind power. It's about throwing up enough flags to get a payoff. And it is done by environmentalists.

Who is it that you believe try to stop these things?

kvrdave

Heavy speculation given that they won't even allow a test well to get a good idea of what is there.

Lord Rick

And how, exactly do these groups get paid off?

kvrdave

We have the 2nd largest landfill in America about 30 miles from me. Takes in trash from all over. It's an amazing facility. The environmental engineer is a friend of mine.

Anyway, the environmentalists put up all kinds of road blocks. Court orders, appeals, etc. The name of the game is to delay the process as long as you can. Eventually the company figures out a price that it is worth it for them to get rid of you rather than continue to pay all the court costs, delays, etc. One group (really just a guy named Dennis White) managed to get a tipping fee paid to his group if he agreed to quit fighting them because the delays were getting costly. The Yakama Indian Nation is pretty good at this too, because they don't have to pay for their own lawyers. They generally make a payoff deal in the begining though.

It's the same reason you hear environmentalists cry for wind power then oppose it when it becomes a reality. It's a money grab.

4KRG

Sure, you can put it next to the two that are already here

http://www.nucleartourist.com/us/va.htm


Environmentalists are a major influence in the energy problems, have no illusions.

4KRG

CRM114 - I am waiting for your answer to this one.

What energy source is going to save us?

4KRG

yeah, I know, that is the point.

Screaming you want fossil energy replaced in full is just as rediculous.

kvrdave

BTW, I actually rent to one of the biggest environmentalists around here. He is a retired government worker. He uses the money to go back protests against the WTO, etc. He worked under the banner of the Audubon Society as a local chapter. The nationals finally caught wind of what was going on and revoked their charter.

NCMojo

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Dammit, you were so close. Why do you think that the public is lacking foresight, or an enthusiasm for science? I don't see that. What I see is a generations of politicians on both sides of the aisle so beholden to the oil companies that they scuttle advanced research and design that could lead to oil independence. What they've promoted instead is cheap, unfettered access to more oil, with lip service paid to advancing technology like hydrogen cars and wind farming.

Lord Rick

Ok, so you're talking about scam artists that have figured out how to game the system, not environmentalists per se.

You seem to have a large number of deadbeats in your area. I wonder why?

kvrdave

Nope, they are true believers who figure that they can oppose everything, make money that they can use for the good of society and Mother Earth...and themselves. You kid yourself if you think that the bulk of environmentalists aren't the same. It is the same reason Ted Kennedy calls for wind energy and then complains when they put it in his sailing lane.

These aren't scam artists, they are environmentalists. How often do you think things are built (like energy plants, landfills, wind farms, etc.) that don't involve payoffs?

My area is no different than others and you are naive if you think money is not a part of the game.

Why do you think environmentalists call for renewable energy and then block efforts to use windmills?

CRM114

I didn't know this was directed at me.

I've been advocating using alternative sources of oil while exploring new means of power. What the best source might be I'll leave to the scientists.

What I do know is that scientists, either in the private or public sector, are not going to make serious progress until the American government gets serious about making progress.

Mordred

Except for that one line you quoted, I agree with Vandelay 100% in this thread. It feels... strange.

Lord Rick

The ones I know aren't like that.

kvrdave

By and large, the ones that go to court are.

Again, why do you think windfarms get blocked by environmentalists?

Better yet, what energy producing plan does not get blocked by environmentalists?

Lord Rick

I'm more aware of windfarms being blocked by the people who live there and are worried about property values.

As to your 2nd question, environmentalists want research into cleaner alternatives, not more of the same crap that's out there now.

kvrdave

That's what they say until you try to do it, then they come up with a reason it is bad as well. Environmentalists want the stone age. I can't think of any energy alternative they have not tried to block. The wind farms around here are in the middle of 10,000 acre farms and it wasn't the farmers who tried to block them.

kvrdave

And statistically, there is nothing (NOTHING!) cleaner and safer than nuclear energy. Who do you think will be at the front of the line to block it?

Th0r S1mpson

We should just not buy gas on the 15th of <i>every</i> month then. Or at least some people. Some people can decide not to buy on the 14th and some on the 16th. Then there are <b>three</B> days in a row where someone is not buying gas. I don't just talk, i will act first. This week I will not fill up on wednesday through friday. Take that, oil mongers!!!

X

Then here's some reading for you.

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2...smus-windfarm/
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2007/...common-ground/