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so giuliani says U.S. foreign policy not at all responsible for 911? is he joking?

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so giuliani says U.S. foreign policy not at all responsible for 911? is he joking?

Old 05-19-07, 03:29 AM
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so giuliani says U.S. foreign policy not at all responsible for 911? is he joking?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/18/martin/index.html

I really wish there could have been a good debate on this. So do you mean to tell me that the U.S. didn't have a hand in creating the 911 attacks? so basically the terrorists just hated us for being the U.S. yeah ok, id like to hear his rationale for 911 then.
ps- just finished 'overthrow' by stephen kinzer. very good book.
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Old 05-19-07, 09:39 AM
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Thanks for that great link.

Ron Paul is right. Rudy Giuliani is wrong.
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Old 05-19-07, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bhome83
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/18/martin/index.html

I really wish there could have been a good debate on this. So do you mean to tell me that the U.S. didn't have a hand in creating the 911 attacks? so basically the terrorists just hated us for being the U.S. yeah ok, id like to hear his rationale for 911 then.
Fundamentalist Islam doesn't need a reason beyond, "they are not Muslim" to hate a group. If you think that dialogging with those responsible for 9/11 could have avoided it you are quite mistaken.

What aspect of the US foreign policy was responsible for 9/11? (think carefully before you answer)
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Old 05-19-07, 10:54 AM
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Like I said in the debate thread, looking at ourselves and our decision-making over the last 50+ years is blasphemy to many Americans and particularly, the GOP.

Last edited by Red Dog; 05-19-07 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 05-19-07, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sracer
Fundamentalist Islam doesn't need a reason beyond, "they are not Muslim" to hate a group. If you think that dialogging with those responsible for 9/11 could have avoided it you are quite mistaken.

What aspect of the US foreign policy was responsible for 9/11? (think carefully before you answer)

Dialogging with Atta and the others isn't the point. The point is what motivates those and others - do the actions of a superpower like the US cause blowback? Is it that hard to believe that US foreign policy since 1945 and domination of the Middle East is a contributing factor? Do you believe that 1980 hostage-crisis in Iran was a random event - just hate-based? Do you not believe there was a reason they took US hostages and not other Western hostages? If they simply want to attack non-Muslims, why don't they attack the Swiss, or the Canadians, or the Japanese, etc.
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Old 05-19-07, 11:26 AM
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I thought it was clear that the only reason we were attacked on 9/11 was because "the terrorists hate our freedom". It couldn't possibly be related to our policies and actions in the Middle-East and around the world for decades.
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Old 05-19-07, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMadMonk
I thought it was clear that the only reason we were attacked on 9/11 was because "the terrorists hate our freedom". It couldn't possibly be related to our policies and actions in the Middle-East and around the world for decades.
You're right. We asked for it.
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Old 05-19-07, 12:37 PM
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Giuliani is a pandering has-been. He had balls during 9/11 and has been trying to get them back ever since. If it wasn't for 9/11, he'd be nothing.
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Old 05-19-07, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldblum
You're right. We asked for it.
Oh please. That's not what he was saying and you know it.
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Old 05-19-07, 01:13 PM
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I suppose it would depend on how they want to define responsibility. Is a rape victim partially responsible based on the clothes she wore? Some would say yes and some would say no. Same with the guy who gets killed during an argument.

I'm not saying we don't have some responsibility if you want to define it loosely. I'm just pointing out that it isn't a cut and dried thing.
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Old 05-19-07, 01:20 PM
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I have no problem saying it isn't a cut and dry thing, which is what makes the dismissive and insulting attitudes of the Guilianis (and the other 8 idiots who wanted to jump on Ron Paul), Hannitys, Malkins and the like so wrong. These people don't even think it is a debatable topic.
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Old 05-19-07, 01:21 PM
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I think there are many more reasons why they hate us that have nothing to do with our foreign intervention.

Modern communication and transportation have made it virtually impossible for the rest of the world to escape the results of our culture and many facets of our culture are diametrically opposed to the culture that Muslim extremists are trying to create and preserve. Depending on your view of some of these results of our culture (which, by the way, some might consider the opposite of culture) we may or may not have anything to apologize to the rest of the world for. In any case, this results in a clash of civilizations.

Our freedom allows our culture to exist. Whether their problem with it can be called "hating our freedom" is open to debate.
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Old 05-19-07, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I suppose it would depend on how they want to define responsibility. Is a rape victim partially responsible based on the clothes she wore? Some would say yes and some would say no. Same with the guy who gets killed during an argument.

I'm not saying we don't have some responsibility if you want to define it loosely. I'm just pointing out that it isn't a cut and dried thing.
Of course it's not cut-and-dry, but it's not ethically equivilent to a woman getting raped, either. A woman wearing skimpy clothes isn't doing anything to anyone else.
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Old 05-19-07, 01:48 PM
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Depends on what you mean by "responsibility".

Moral responsibility? NO. NO. NO.

Cause and effect? Yes. People seem to confuse the two.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
Of course it's not cut-and-dry, but it's not ethically equivilent to a woman getting raped, either. A woman wearing skimpy clothes isn't doing anything to anyone else.

That's true. I wasn't making a point on how the word can be defined, I was showing them as ethically equivilent.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Parcher
Depends on what you mean by "responsibility".

Moral responsibility? NO. NO. NO.

Cause and effect? Yes. People seem to confuse the two.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
She's "provoking" the rapist, just like Americans setting foot on the Holy Land provokes Bin Laden.
They've done a tad more than 'set foot' over the years.
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Old 05-19-07, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
I love Ron Paul (what kind of a name is that though ), but his foreign policy is as naive as his proposal to do away with the IRS.

True naivete = never hearing of the blowback theory, whether you agree with it or not.
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Old 05-19-07, 03:12 PM
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"Everyone else?"
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Old 05-19-07, 04:31 PM
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Obviously there is no such thing as blowback. I mean that is the most rediculous thing i've ever heard of in my entire life. First of all, where did Osama Bin Laden get all these magical weapons the Taliban is attacking us with? who trained his troops? why did they attack us in the first place? here are your answers:

1. They got their weapons through the worldwide weapons black market, which the US in not involved in. At all. Ever. We would never see weapons to our enemies and never sell their enemies weapons. Ever.

2. It's obvious that Osama Bin Laden read the Real Ultimate Guide to Being a Ninja and that's how come his troops can stand nearly toe-to-toe with American troops.

3. Osama Bin Laden attacked us because he's pissed, that's why. Why is he pissed? because we're rich and he's not. He has no money whatsoever, and he does not come from a wealthy family like most Americans do. That's the primary reason. The second? Air Conditioning. It's hot in the desert and it must be really hard for him to cope with that, and he's jealous that pitiful Americans can relax in our nice Air Conditioned houses. You see, in the modern age, no one knew that we had Air Conditioning and they didn't. They didn't know what marvelous technology we had. But now that the internet has spread and everyone pirates movies and TV shows, there's nothing to stop them from learning about our gloriously cooled homes during the stifling hot summers.
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Old 05-19-07, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Superboy
Obviously there is no such thing as blowback. I mean that is the most rediculous thing i've ever heard of in my entire life. First of all, where did Osama Bin Laden get all these magical weapons the Taliban is attacking us with? who trained his troops? why did they attack us in the first place? here are your answers:

1. They got their weapons through the worldwide weapons black market, which the US in not involved in. At all. Ever. We would never see weapons to our enemies and never sell their enemies weapons. Ever.

2. It's obvious that Osama Bin Laden read the Real Ultimate Guide to Being a Ninja and that's how come his troops can stand nearly toe-to-toe with American troops.

3. Osama Bin Laden attacked us because he's pissed, that's why. Why is he pissed? because we're rich and he's not. He has no money whatsoever, and he does not come from a wealthy family like most Americans do. That's the primary reason. The second? Air Conditioning. It's hot in the desert and it must be really hard for him to cope with that, and he's jealous that pitiful Americans can relax in our nice Air Conditioned houses. You see, in the modern age, no one knew that we had Air Conditioning and they didn't. They didn't know what marvelous technology we had. But now that the internet has spread and everyone pirates movies and TV shows, there's nothing to stop them from learning about our gloriously cooled homes during the stifling hot summers.

= teh joke failure
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Old 05-19-07, 05:26 PM
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i would pay money to see a televised debate between noam chomsky and giuliani...or better yet michelle malkin. though of course the GOP would just throw their usual 'chomsky hates this country, why dont you leave' crap. Chomsky is too mild mannered to be able to get a word in with anyone in the GOP over a debate. unfortunately
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Old 05-19-07, 05:57 PM
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here's an interview with Chris Dodd (D) (who doesn't have a clue) last night on Bill Maher on why we were attacked.


Maher (as usual) is correct.....in my opinion.

starts about 1:45 in

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Old 05-19-07, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
Dialogging with Atta and the others isn't the point. The point is what motivates those and others - do the actions of a superpower like the US cause blowback? Is it that hard to believe that US foreign policy since 1945 and domination of the Middle East is a contributing factor? Do you believe that 1980 hostage-crisis in Iran was a random event - just hate-based? Do you not believe there was a reason they took US hostages and not other Western hostages? If they simply want to attack non-Muslims, why don't they attack the Swiss, or the Canadians, or the Japanese, etc.
Ummmm....like the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, the Bali bombings, the Mumbai bombings, the Breslan massacre, the burning of the Danish embassy in Beirut after the cartoons, the plot to attack Canadian parliament and behead the prime minister, the AQ butchering of Shias in Iraq on a daily basis, attacks in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia, Afghanistan....for pete's sake, you could go on for about 200 pages in regards to the targets of the Islamists.

But in a sense, you're completely right--it is US foreign policy that infuriates the Islamists----ANY projection of liberal Western values, rule of law, pluralism, democracy, religious tolerance, womens' rights, etc. is certainly a direct threat to them.
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Old 05-19-07, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
Ummmm....like the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, the Bali bombings, the Mumbai bombings, the Breslan massacre, the burning of the Danish embassy in Beirut after the cartoons, the plot to attack Canadian parliament and behead the prime minister, the AQ butchering of Shias in Iraq on a daily basis, attacks in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia, Afghanistan....for pete's sake, you could go on for about 200 pages in regards to the targets of the Islamists.

But in a sense, you're completely right--it is US foreign policy that infuriates the Islamists----ANY projection of liberal Western values, rule of law, pluralism, democracy, religious tolerance, womens' rights, etc. is certainly a direct threat to them.
whoa hold on there. Too many facts and reason. not enough naive faith in the religion of peace (tm)
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