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NY state court says spending $17,014 per student is not enough, and orders increase.

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NY state court says spending $17,014 per student is not enough, and orders increase.

Old 05-04-07, 01:19 PM
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NY state court says spending $17,014 per student is not enough, and orders increase.

The U.S. already has the most expensive public schools in the world. But no matter how much money they spend, some people still claim that it's not enough.


http://timesunion.com/AspStories/sto...StoryID=586411

Study: Local taxes up despite historic state school aid

By MICHAEL GORMLEY, Associated Press

Last updated: 7:33 p.m., Thursday, May 3, 2007

ALBANY -- Despite a historic increase in state school aid, New Yorkers can generally expect a bigger local tax bill from their proposed local budgets, but the growth will likely be less than a year ago.

The state Business Council's annual School Tax Watch reported Thursday that despite the state aid increase of $1.8 billion approved April 1, the per pupil property tax levy will increase 4 percent on average statewide. That would be down from a 6 percent increase a year ago, according to the business group. State aid is now about $19 billion a year.

Between state and local sources, per-pupil spending will increase 6 percent to $18,035, on average, according to the Business Council. That's about twice the inflation rate.

Just 74 of the more than 600 school districts analyzed call for spending increases at or below inflation, said council spokesman Matthew Maguire.

The increase in spending was needed and required by a court decision that found the state hasn't met its constitutional requirement to fund schools enough to provide a sound education, said David Ernst of the state School Boards Association.

"Nevertheless, most districts applied at least part of their state aid to property tax relief," he said. The state Education Department shows the average local tax levy will increase by 3.9 percent, he said, compared with a 6.1 percent increase a year ago.

Ernst also said the broad consumer price index, which tracks the rising costs to individuals, isn't an accurate measure of the rising costs faced by schools.

Voters statewide outside New York City, Yonkers, Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo will vote May 15 on local school budgets, school board members and sometimes borrowing and construction proposals.
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Old 05-04-07, 01:24 PM
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i think this is related to NYC's lawsuit against the state where they said that Albany funded suburban schools at a higher rate than city schools or something like that.

good news is us NYC people pay less taxes. we don't have the most efficient school system here, but neither do the suburban schools and local politics outside NYC have just as much to do with property taxes than stupid court decisions
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Old 05-04-07, 01:46 PM
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Does Jersey's public schools cost this much?

It is just unbelieveable how much things cost in some areas.
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Old 05-04-07, 02:02 PM
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NJ taxes are the worst. I think tcoursen will tell you it's because of newark and a few other districts.

part of it is politics. NYC has 8 million people and i believe the rate of kids per adults is less than the burbs. in the burbs the local towns pay for almost everything since no one trusts the county or state and this results in a lot of wasteful spending for the same thing in every town. in the burbs you can only go to your local school and the bills are paid locally
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Old 05-04-07, 02:04 PM
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If there is one thing I don't mind tax money going to, it's schools and education.
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Old 05-04-07, 02:14 PM
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i don't know about where you live, but in the NYC burbs it's ridiculous. average house is $7000 taxes a year. in NJ it's $10,000 or more.
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Old 05-04-07, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger
Does Jersey's public schools cost this much?

It is just unbelieveable how much things cost in some areas.
I don't know what the current numbers on NJ schools are, my guess would be that it is slightly lower per student on average.

The article mentions a court ruling that said that NYC schools were not funded the same as the other ones in the state. Well, NJ DOES have that. However, the differance in NJ is that that court ruling create what are called Abbott districts. There are 31 of them. They are generally the poorest and worst performing districts in the state. Or better yet, they WERE the worst back in the 80's when it was set up. Of course it hasn't changed over time. So some districts that have improved and should no longer qualify are still in it, and others that should be are excluded. To give you an example, Hoboken, is one of the towns that gets all this special aid. Back in the early 80's Hoboken was a shit hole. Then in the mid to late 80's it surged backed. Developers got in there and cleaned up a lot of stuff. Old factories were turned into luxury condos, etc. etc. It is now a trendy place for wall street workers to live in million dollar condos. Our current Gov. and one of our Senators live there. The property taxes are crazy low because the town doesn't pay for it's schools. It had a high school built in the 80's with the money and they already want another new one because that one built in the 80's is too old. My town's newest school is from the late 60's. The high school is over 100 years old and still has the original furnace.

School funding is a major issue in NJ. It's a joke and neither party wants to fix it.
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Old 05-04-07, 02:29 PM
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Its ridiculous to say you have to spend X amount per student. It would make more sense to detail what the spending goes to.

I dont know the exact number, but say where I live they spend 15K per student. As much as I want to spend more money on the children, I dont want to vote for something that says we are going to increase spending from 15K to 20K per student. I want to know exactly what its going to be.
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Old 05-04-07, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Draven
If there is one thing I don't mind tax money going to, it's schools and education.

But what about bureaucrats and administrators? Isn't that where much of this money is really going? Or do you think the average New York teacher gets paid $400,000 a year?
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Old 05-04-07, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grundle
But what about bureaucrats and administrators? Isn't that where much of this money is really going? Or do you think the average New York teacher gets paid $400,000 a year?
I swear grundle is John Stossel.

Sure, a lot of money is probably wasted in extra administrators. I can say many of the administrators are needed because of the bureaucracy in Washington and Harrisburg. School districts need to report on -everything- in detail on achievement, poverty, discipline and finances. These are usually management level people - you aren't going to get good people on the cheap.

As for school costs, I'm not too familiar with the budgeting process but I do know energy and healthcare costs are spiraling out of control. Operating large buildings and busing students uses a lot of energy. Add in the huge costs of IT infrastructure to track all of the data required by the government.
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Old 05-04-07, 05:37 PM
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Don't forget Special Ed. I think that adds a lot of costs. It does seem like my sons grammar school has a good number of special ed. type teachers.
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Old 05-04-07, 05:47 PM
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They could make them twice as smart if they raised it to $36,000 a year.

Actually, if they gave parents (or kids) money based on their grades, they may have a chance. If you don't get the parents involved, the money won't do anything.
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Old 05-06-07, 01:49 PM
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Heh, we all know that spending more per pupil directly equates to better education and higher graduation rates. Just look at the #1-spending district in the country in Washington DC and count the Rhodes Scholars they've produced!
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Old 05-06-07, 03:20 PM
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I graduated from NYC public schools and a CUNY College and I feel like I got a pretty good education, so the fact that NYS is spending more on education gets a big from me.
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Old 05-06-07, 05:20 PM
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Meh. Looking at the cost per student in public education is like all of those riddiculous stories around Mothers Day that says that a houswife would make $138,095. It sounds outrageous -- my God, how can they spend $18,000 per student??!?!! -- but when you consider everything that goes into public education (not just personnel, but classroom buildings, upkeep and repair, school supplies, utilities and special needs students), it's not that unreasonable.
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Old 05-06-07, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
Meh. Looking at the cost per student in public education is like all of those riddiculous stories around Mothers Day that says that a houswife would make $138,095. It sounds outrageous -- my God, how can they spend $18,000 per student??!?!! -- but when you consider everything that goes into public education (not just personnel, but classroom buildings, upkeep and repair, school supplies, utilities and special needs students), it's not that unreasonable.
special ed is the biggest business out there and will never go down
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Old 05-06-07, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
I swear grundle is John Stossel.

Sure, a lot of money is probably wasted in extra administrators. I can say many of the administrators are needed because of the bureaucracy in Washington and Harrisburg. School districts need to report on -everything- in detail on achievement, poverty, discipline and finances. These are usually management level people - you aren't going to get good people on the cheap.

As for school costs, I'm not too familiar with the budgeting process but I do know energy and healthcare costs are spiraling out of control. Operating large buildings and busing students uses a lot of energy. Add in the huge costs of IT infrastructure to track all of the data required by the government.
and don't forget hiring an army of people to make up reports for stupid parents who need to know their kids are doing OK
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Old 05-07-07, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
special ed is the biggest business out there and will never go down
I assume you're limiting yourself to the field of education -- I think that commodoities like oil, drugs, entertainment, etc., might be slightly more lucrative. But even there, I'd actually say that standardized testing is probably a much better example of a bigger business that will never go away.

Which is a shame, because standardized testing is basically ruining education.
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Old 05-07-07, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
standardized testing is basically ruining education.

I went to Montessori when I was a kid. I rememeber the first time I ever took a standardized math test. The questions were incredibly easy. The teacher said the state required us to take it.

When the scores came back, my score was 99%. I told my teacher I was upset that it wasn't 100%. She said 99% was the highest score you could get on a test like this. I thought it was stupid to have a test where you couldn't score 100%.

Ever since then, I've thought that state standardized testing was a joke, and an insult, and a waste of time.

Apparently, the public schools are full of kids who can't pass these incredibly easy tests. And their budgets, per student, are way higher than Montessori's.

Montessori was pretty cool. There was a principal, a few teachers, and a receptionist, and that was it. There were no bureaucrats, no committees, no unions, and no politicians.

Everyone at Montessori could read by the age of 4.

The public high schools give diplomas to tens of millions of people who can't read.
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Old 05-07-07, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by grundle
I went to Montessori when I was a kid. I rememeber the first time I ever took a standardized math test. The questions were incredibly easy. The teacher said the state required us to take it.

When the scores came back, my score was 99%. I told my teacher I was upset that it wasn't 100%. She said 99% was the highest score you could get on a test like this. I thought it was stupid to have a test where you couldn't score 100%.

Ever since then, I've thought that state standardized testing was a joke, and an insult, and a waste of time.

Apparently, the public schools are full of kids who can't pass these incredibly easy tests. And their budgets, per student, are way higher than Montessori's.

Montessori was pretty cool. There was a principal, a few teachers, and a receptionist, and that was it. There were no bureaucrats, no committees, no unions, and no politicians.

Everyone at Montessori could read by the age of 4.

The public high schools give diplomas to tens of millions of people who can't read.
I assume you attended a premier university then? I know our public district sends quite a few kids to ivy league schools. A bunch of numbskulls.

You always tell the same anecdote about your superior schooling yet never divulge how you are any different as an adult.
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Old 05-07-07, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
Meh. Looking at the cost per student in public education is like all of those riddiculous stories around Mothers Day that says that a houswife would make $138,095. It sounds outrageous -- my God, how can they spend $18,000 per student??!?!! -- but when you consider everything that goes into public education (not just personnel, but classroom buildings, upkeep and repair, school supplies, utilities and special needs students), it's not that unreasonable.
Ah, but the comparison of what a housewife does compared to what other professionals do, is where it makes its fatal flaw. But one can look at what other states pay and compare it quite easily.

For example, WA State pays under $8,000 per year. (About $5500 from the state, $800 from feds, $1300 from local levies, and about $400 from grants. Now all you have to do is compare WA test scores to NY test scores and decide if NY is getting "their money's worth."

edit: rounding is why the numbers do not match.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by grundle
I went to Montessori when I was a kid. I rememeber the first time I ever took a standardized math test. The questions were incredibly easy. The teacher said the state required us to take it. When the scores came back, my score was 99%. I told my teacher I was upset that it wasn't 100%. She said 99% was the highest score you could get on a test like this. I thought it was stupid to have a test where you couldn't score 100%.

Ever since then, I've thought that state standardized testing was a joke, and an insult, and a waste of time.
Heh, it has been my experience that standardized tests results are scored in terms of percentile, not percent correct. The highest 'grade' you can typically score is 99th percentile, which roughly means that you beat out 99% of the population, you scored in the top 1%.

I went to a public school and even I knew that.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by grundle
I thought it was stupid to have a test where you couldn't score 100%.
Apparently your high quality education left out the part about percentile rankings.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kenbuzz
Heh, it has been my experience that standardized tests results are scored in terms of percentile, not percent correct. The highest 'grade' you can typically score is 99th percentile, which roughly means that you beat out 99% of the population, you scored in the top 1%.

I went to a public school and even I knew that.


Right.

I know that now.

I didn't know it then.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
I assume you attended a premier university then? I know our public district sends quite a few kids to ivy league schools. A bunch of numbskulls.

You always tell the same anecdote about your superior schooling yet never divulge how you are any different as an adult.

No special university. I got 780 on the math SAT, but only 520 on the verbal.
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