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Question about the Patriot Act.

Old 04-25-07, 12:06 PM
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Question about the Patriot Act.

I am not here for it or against it, I just have a few questions and maybe looking for some discussion. I will admit I do not know the ins and outs of this Act. Now it was started in congress by a republican, but is the Patriot Act truly a conservative Act? I see a lot of media of people bashing the Patriot Act and a lot of democrats bashing it. But isn't a true republican one who wants limited government, so wouldn't the Patriot Act go against most republican beliefs? Now obviously being republican doesn't mean you believe in 100% of their views but I would think this would be a big one.

I understand why this passed so fast, but it seems liberals are bashing conservatives for this, for no reason. By all means enlighten me if I am wrong.
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Old 04-25-07, 12:12 PM
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Repubs want limited govt when it comes to business and taxes. When it comes to personal freedom, I'd say they do not. See abortion, gay issues, NSA wiretapping and the Patriot Act.
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Old 04-25-07, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DVDsAreMyLIFE
I understand why this passed so fast, but it seems liberals are bashing conservatives for this, for no reason. By all means enlighten me if I am wrong.
Police State = Republicans
Nanny State = Democrats

Truly seeks to protect personal freedom through action = Neither

Simplistic, but that pretty much sums it up.
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Old 04-25-07, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinS
Police State = Republicans
Nanny State = Democrats

Truly seeks to protect personal freedom through action = Neither

Simplistic, but that pretty much sums it up.

Yeah - pretty much, although the GOP likes gov't to play nanny in many areas too (censorship, decency, gambling, etc).
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Old 04-25-07, 12:39 PM
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Ok that is the current republican party, but what about the original republican party? Weren't they for limited government all around?
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Old 04-25-07, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DVDsAreMyLIFE
Ok that is the current republican party, but what about the original republican party? Weren't they for limited government all around?
What, you mean 150 years ago? I'm sure that's not at all relevant.
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Old 04-25-07, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DVDsAreMyLIFE
Ok that is the current republican party, but what about the original republican party? Weren't they for limited government all around?
Well, Abe Lincoln wore a stovepipe hat...
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Old 04-25-07, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
What, you mean 150 years ago? I'm sure that's not at all relevant.

Well I think it is relevant to know how the republican party has evolved and maybe that the republican party is not as conservative as most people think. It is relevant to the information I am curious about.
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Old 04-25-07, 01:05 PM
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Democrats share the praise or blame for the Patriot Act.

Neither party is immune from the public pressure of 'providing safety for the citizens after such an event.' Of course, what does a sacrifice of a few individual rights matter?
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Old 04-25-07, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Democrats share the praise or blame for the Patriot Act.

Neither party is immune from the public pressure of 'providing safety for the citizens after such an event.' Of course, what does a sacrifice of a few individual rights matter?
That's somewhat disingenous. The Patriot Act was drafted in private by the GOP leadership, and was delivered to the floor of Congress mere hours before an up-or-down floor vote. Most Democrats had scarce idea of what they were voting on, and had given the measure only a perfunctary read-through. Many of the most egregious provisions of the Patriot Act only came to light some time later.

Now, I'll grant you that the Democrats did not put up much of a fight, as they were overoccupied with public opinion polls and not wanting to appear "soft" on terrorism. But when it comes to "sharing the praise or blame"... I'd have to throw it 70-30 on the shoulders of the GOP.
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Old 04-25-07, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Neither party is immune from the public pressure of 'providing safety for the citizens after such an event.' Of course, what does a sacrifice of a few individual rights matter?
Is there a right to privacy in the constitution somewhere? To which rights are you referring?
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Old 04-25-07, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by General Zod
Is there a right to privacy in the constitution somewhere? To which rights are you referring?
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...of/privacy.htm

Of course, that's a whole different hornets nest you're kickin'.
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Old 04-25-07, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
That's not a very good excuse. "I don't know what I'm voting on, so I'll just vote yay anyway."

I don't think most Republicans knew what they were voting on either, but it 'sounded' good at the time (of panic). The whole thing was a knee-jerk reaction.
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Old 04-25-07, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by General Zod
Is there a right to privacy in the constitution somewhere? To which rights are you referring?
See the 4th and 9th amendments.
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Old 04-25-07, 01:55 PM
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I blame the Democrats for voting on it for appearance's sake. I blame the Republicans more for bringing it to the table at all.
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Old 04-25-07, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
I'm not excusing the Republicans, either. I'm just saying that I wouldn't give Dems a pass simply because they felt rushed into voting. Though I don't have any specific problems with the Patriot Act, it seems like it kind of snuck its way into law without much initial debate. I'd always be hesitant about something like that.
I agree completely. Not knowing what you're voting on is not at all an acceptable excuse. The Republicans who drafted the legislation and rushed it to a vote share as much blame as the Democrats who voted for it without reading it.
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Old 04-25-07, 02:43 PM
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This much can be said: the LONE nay vote in the Senate was a Democrat - Russ Feingold.
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Old 04-25-07, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Rockmjd23
I'm not excusing the Republicans, either. I'm just saying that I wouldn't give Dems a pass simply because they felt rushed into voting. Though I don't have any specific problems with the Patriot Act, it seems like it kind of snuck its way into law without much initial debate. I'd always be hesitant about something like that.
Not really a pass... I gave the Democrats 30% of the blame. But now that I think about it, giving them that much blame is really unfair. It was written by Republicans, brought to the floor by Republicans, many of whom had access to the language of the measure well before their Democratic counterparts...

I dunno, I don't want to absolve the Democrats completely -- they were, as usual, a bunch of spineless jerks -- but 30% is way too high a proportion of blame. Maybe 80-20?

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Old 04-25-07, 02:53 PM
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One Democrat in the United States Senate didn't vote for the Patriot Act of 10/2001.

One Democrat didn't vote.

The Democrats share the praise or blame (however you wish to look at it) equally.
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Old 04-25-07, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
One Democrat in the United States Senate didn't vote for the Patriot Act of 10/2001.

One Democrat didn't vote.

The Democrats share the praise or blame (however you wish to look at it) equally.
Well, of course, you're wrong, but at least you're consistent.
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Old 04-25-07, 02:58 PM
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If all of the Democrats would have voted against it, would it still have passed?
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Old 04-25-07, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
One Democrat in the United States Senate didn't vote for the Patriot Act of 10/2001.

One Democrat didn't vote.

The Democrats share the praise or blame (however you wish to look at it) equally.
Except for Russ Feingold.
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Old 04-25-07, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
If all of the Democrats would have voted against it, would it still have passed?

filibuster
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Old 04-25-07, 03:01 PM
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If Republicans were all about having a Police State, why would they support the 2nd Amendment? How can one even hope to overpower the masses if the masses have the ability to fight back?
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Old 04-25-07, 03:08 PM
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Neither party wants a police state. They're merely responding to the desire of the public.

It happens every time - law enforcement (especially federal enforcement) is given more power.

1993 WTC bombing

1995 OKC bombing

9/11

People desire to be safe. They believe that government that provide that safety.
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