Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Question about the Patriot Act.

Old 04-25-07, 04:34 PM
  #26  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 31,854
Originally Posted by MartinBlank
If Republicans were all about having a Police State, why would they support the 2nd Amendment? How can one even hope to overpower the masses if the masses have the ability to fight back?
Barring a complete upheaval of our social system (after a series of nuke attacks or something) the fact that the population can buy guns is not going to stop political action. We could easily get to a "may I see your papers please" state without a gun battle between cops and civilians.
Draven is offline  
Old 04-25-07, 11:04 PM
  #27  
DVD Talk Hero
 
jfoobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 37,819
Originally Posted by NCMojo
Well, of course, you're wrong, but at least you're consistent.
Nah, he's really not. The Patriot Act was created and orchestrated by Republicans who took advantage of Democrats, other Republicans and the American people to get it passed with little to no comment.

If I watch someone shoplift and don't tell the shopkeeper what I saw, am I partially to blame for the theft? Yes. Am I equally to blame? Uh, no.
jfoobar is offline  
Old 04-25-07, 11:06 PM
  #28  
DVD Talk Hero
 
jfoobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 37,819
Originally Posted by Draven
Barring a complete upheaval of our social system (after a series of nuke attacks or something) the fact that the population can buy guns is not going to stop political action. We could easily get to a "may I see your papers please" state without a gun battle between cops and civilians.
Exactly. The Second Amendment is a defense against tyrrany. Alas, the kind of tyrrany that it protects against is not what we will see. It will not be a wall of water that the Bill of Rights can serve as a dam against. It is a slow trickle that passes unobserved by anyone with the clout and/or willingness to say something about it and have people truly listen.
jfoobar is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 10:43 AM
  #29  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
GreenMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,383
Both sides are to blame for this. To be honest I don't think the Democrats have enough balls to get rid the Patriot Act. If they had read it, in that political environment, they would still have passed it (maybe with a few more dissenting votes).
GreenMonkey is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 11:30 AM
  #30  
DVD Talk Hero
 
jfoobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 37,819
Originally Posted by GreenMonkey
To be honest I don't think the Democrats have enough balls to get rid the Patriot Act. If they had read it, in that political environment, they would still have passed it (maybe with a few more dissenting votes).
Correct on both counts. There is no question it would have passed, which is why I remain a little surprised that its crafters resorted to such clandestine measures to get it passed through Congress the way that they did.

I guess they were relying on the apathy of the American people and its representatives in Congress to not raise too much of a stink about a law that has already passed. That reliance has obviously paid off.
jfoobar is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 04:58 PM
  #31  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: puckland
Posts: 745
Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

Despite the drama-queen title, this article has some interesting stuff in it. e.g.

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather, as other critics are noting, our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.
This article argues that the real fear of future terrorist attacks on U.S. soil might not be the damage of the attacks themselves, but rather, what those in power will do in the interest of security now that so many checks and balances have been dismantled or disabled.
Nutter is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 06:15 PM
  #32  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
GreenMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,383
Originally Posted by Nutter
Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

Despite the drama-queen title, this article has some interesting stuff in it. e.g.



This article argues that the real fear of future terrorist attacks on U.S. soil might not be the damage of the attacks themselves, but rather, what those in power will do in the interest of security now that so many checks and balances have been dismantled or disabled.
That was a great article. Very reasonable sounding. Jives with my understanding of history as well. This is why I am concerned about the state of freedoms in the U.S. and unwilling to accept them being curtailed in the name of safety except on a VERY temporary basis.

Thanks for posting it.
GreenMonkey is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 06:41 PM
  #33  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Ky-Fi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts
Posts: 10,928
I would argue that Europe is much further along on the way to totalitarianism than is the US at this point, what with the unprecedented historical changes in national sovereignty, ethnic population shifts and an increasingly undemocratic EU:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
Ky-Fi is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 06:53 PM
  #34  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,204
Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
I would argue that Europe is much further along on the way to totalitarianism than is the US at this point, what with the unprecedented historical changes in national sovereignty, ethnic population shifts and an increasingly undemocratic EU:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
In his speech Mr Bukovsky referred to confidential documents from secret Soviet files which he was allowed to read in 1992. These documents confirm the existence of a “conspiracy” to turn the European Union into a socialist organization.
You're kidding me, right???


Last edited by NCMojo; 04-26-07 at 06:55 PM.
NCMojo is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 07:06 PM
  #35  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Ky-Fi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by NCMojo
You're kidding me, right???



Yeah, he's a real loon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovsky


Similarly, I'm sure you'll dismiss this piece as the work of a deranged individual


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121700018.html


If you're going to denigrate a piece, at least dispute some of his quotes, assertions or conclusions before posting the funny picture.
Ky-Fi is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 07:53 PM
  #36  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,204
Originally Posted by Ky-Fi


Yeah, he's a real loon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukovsky


Similarly, I'm sure you'll dismiss this piece as the work of a deranged individual


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121700018.html


If you're going to denigrate a piece, at least dispute some of his quotes, assertions or conclusions before posting the funny picture.
Yeah, I know who Bukovsky is. (I hit Wikipedia before I posted.) And I apologize if I offended. But, seriously... one guy is making the claim that he saw some documents 15 years ago that he said substantiates a massive left-wing conspiracy between the Politburo, Italian Communists and German Social-Democrats to turn the EU into the new Soviet Union. That's it. We have nothing but his interpretation in this matter.

I'm not saying that Vladimir Bukovsky is a nutcase. I'm just saying that it's possible he may have been mistaken.
NCMojo is offline  
Old 04-26-07, 08:19 PM
  #37  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Ky-Fi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts
Posts: 10,928
Originally Posted by NCMojo
But, seriously... one guy is making the claim that he saw some documents 15 years ago that he said substantiates a massive left-wing conspiracy between the Politburo, Italian Communists and German Social-Democrats to turn the EU into the new Soviet Union. That's it.
Actually, those documents were a fairly minor part of his overall case as to how the EU is becoming totalitarian.

Originally Posted by NCMojo
I'm not saying that Vladimir Bukovsky is a nutcase.
My apologies. I don't know how I could have inferred that from your post.

Ky-Fi is offline  
Old 04-27-07, 01:12 AM
  #38  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: puckland
Posts: 745
Originally Posted by Ky-Fi
I would argue that Europe is much further along on the way to totalitarianism than is the US at this point, what with the unprecedented historical changes in national sovereignty, ethnic population shifts and an increasingly undemocratic EU:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
Okay. Let's get our hats on. Say that Europe is goose-stepping along several clicks ahead of the U.S.. What effect does that have on what needs to be done by americans?
Nutter is offline  
Old 04-28-07, 01:36 PM
  #39  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
people in power leverage that power to stay in power (like congress adding 100 million in the emergency defense spending for their political parties). Both parties are to blame for the patriot act. If the Dems really hated it as much as they say, they should revoke it, they have the majority of congress.
Venusian is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.