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Hunger Strikes at Guantanamo

Old 04-08-07, 10:44 PM
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Hunger Strikes at Guantanamo

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Last edited by darkessenz; 02-24-19 at 07:35 PM. Reason: old
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Old 04-08-07, 11:19 PM
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I think they've done it before. But yeah, it's a joke and a iconic caricature of what America is. But I'm sure someone will post the evidence all these people are terrorists and are out to destroy America. Of course, if they weren't before, they certainly are now.
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Old 04-08-07, 11:25 PM
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I think this is disturbing news to those who were sure we weren't feeding them.
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Old 04-08-07, 11:48 PM
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I knew there was a reason OJ was expensive.
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Old 04-09-07, 08:19 AM
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I certainly don't believe a hunger strike should dictate whether we close the facility or not.
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Old 04-09-07, 08:42 AM
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The 13 detainees now on hunger strikes is the highest number to endure the force-feeding regimen on an extended basis since early 2006, when the military broke a long-running strike with a new policy of strapping prisoners into “restraint chairs” while they are fed by plastic tubes inserted through their nostrils.

The hunger strikers are now monitored so closely the they have virtually no chance to starve themselves. Yet their persistence underscores how the struggle between detainees and guards at Guantánamo has continued even as the military has tightened its control.

“We don’t have any rights here, even after your Supreme Court said we had rights,” one hunger striker, Majid al-Joudi, told a military physician, according to medical records released recently under a federal court order. “If the policy does not change, you will see a big increase in fasting.”
Bear in mind that the vast majority of those at Guantanamo have yet to be charged with a crime. Many of them are coming up on five years in US custody, and we haven't even officially said what they're charged with. Now, not only have we denied these people their basic rights of freedom and justice -- two big tentpoles for the Bush Administration in its "war on terror" circus -- but even basic dignity. We're strapping them down into chairs, shoving a tube down their throat, and force-feeding them. Every day.

What the fuck kind of country are we living in?
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Old 04-09-07, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
, not only have we denied these people their basic rights of freedom and justice ... but even basic dignity. We're strapping them down into chairs, shoving a tube down their throat, and force-feeding them. Every day.

What the fuck kind of country are we living in?
Michael Schiavo, is that you?
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Old 04-09-07, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
Michael Schiavo, is that you?
Hey, if they'd had to strap down Terry in a restraining chair in order to get her food, I'd have been marching side-by-side with Rev. Dobson.
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Old 04-09-07, 01:27 PM
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So you think they should let them starve themselves to death. Is that the argument you are making?

Yes, I know you think they shouldn't even be there... that's a serious issue worth discussing... but given that they are, do you think they should be allowed to starve themselves to death?
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Old 04-09-07, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
I certainly don't believe a hunger strike should dictate whether we close the facility or not.
Well, at what point do you say, "Ok, let's shut this thing down."

We are getting absolutely no information which can help US forces in the field. The information would be five years old, at best. And how many times has the US changed it's intel focus in the meantime.

This is assuming we actually HAVE mostly terrorists locked up.

Of course, I'm sure we'll have some "general" who will comment, "Ahhh, but we have MOUNTAINS of valuable information obtained! Arghhhh! But I can't tell you because it's classified and would help the terrorists! MmmmmHmmmm."

The reason I say "general" is because we have a new one just about every fucking month.
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Old 04-09-07, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
So you think they should let them starve themselves to death. Is that the argument you are making?

Yes, I know you think they shouldn't even be there... that's a serious issue worth discussing... but given that they are, do you think they should be allowed to starve themselves to death?
No... as you said... I think we should be seriously questioning why we are holding these people in the first place. Clearly, we need to address the immediate need -- we don't want these people to starve -- but if we were truly concerned about their well-being, we never would have subjected them to torture, solitary confinement, stress positions, etc.

I'd say a good start would be to set deadlines: by May 1st, we either officially charge every detainee with a serious crime, or we let them go. By July 1st, we should be holding trials; by September 1st, all trials should be completed; by December 1st, we should be shutting the doors to Guantanamo.

(And if anybody whines, "why, that's not enough time!", then I'd say -- tough titty. We've had five fucking years. If you don't know at this point what you can charge somebody with, then you need to just let them go, ASAP.)

But again -- the Bush Administration doesn't "do" deadlines, do they?
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Old 04-09-07, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
I would want to die too if I was in complete limbo, especially if I was innocent.
We're pretty sure they all are innocent.
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Old 04-09-07, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
I'd say a good start would be to set deadlines: by May 1st, we either officially charge every detainee with a serious crime, or we let them go. By July 1st, we should be holding trials; by September 1st, all trials should be completed; by December 1st, we should be shutting the doors to Guantanamo.
Deadlines! Don't you know those give aid and comfort to the enemy, traitor?

(Cue "Stars and Stripes Forever")
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Old 04-09-07, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
Well its pretty obvious they are all guilty, what with all the evidence and information that has been released, and the number of hearings and charges brought.

How confident are you in the military and the Bush administration in determining the guilt of random foreigners? 90%? 95%? What level of certainty is required before we stop caring about evidence, military commissions, or other forms of evidentiary showings?
Fairly confident given it is the same venue used on our soldiers. Their diet should have included a bit of lead in the field.
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Old 04-09-07, 03:46 PM
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How can you be confident. Do you have acccess to some special reports us ordinary citizens don't have?
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Old 04-09-07, 03:49 PM
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Well, our soldiers go through the same venue when they are tried. And they have been for years.
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Old 04-09-07, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Fairly confident given it is the same venue used on our soldiers. Their diet should have included a bit of lead in the field.
I think your referring to military tribunals, right? Except that most of the detainees haven't actually gone through a military tribunal. The vast majority haven't even gone through a formal indictment.

And as for your "lead" comment... so now you're saying that it would be far better, if we capture someone in the field, to just shoot them on sight? Innocent or guilty? Man, woman or child? But bhk, if we did that... then we couldn't torture them the way that you like, could we?

I do like your newest conceptualization, though: "Hmm... if we arrest them, then eventually they might want a trial... and maybe some of them would be found innocent... and then we'd look bad, so... yep, better to just shoot them."

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Old 04-09-07, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Well, our soldiers go through the same venue when they are tried. And they have been for years.
There's at least two small disconnects in your logic, there. <b>NCMojo</b> found one.
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Old 04-09-07, 04:12 PM
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I think your referring to military tribunals, right? Except that most of the detainees haven't actually gone through a military tribunal. The vast majority haven't even gone through a formal indictment.
We would have by now if All Criminals(and Terrorists) Love Us types didn't keep suing. Now there is a law in place, the trials are starting(remember Hicks pleading guilty?)
And as for your "lead" comment... so now you're saying that it would be far better, if we capture someone in the field, to just shoot them on sight? Innocent or guilty? Man, woman or child? But bhk, if we did that... then we couldn't torture them the way that you like, could we?
That's kind of wrong, taking it to a personal level like that.

I do like your newest conceptualization, though: "Hmm... if we arrest them, then eventually they might want a trial... and maybe some of them would be found innocent... and then we'd look bad, so... yep, better to just shoot them."
The military is there to kill people and break things. That's what they should be allowed to do instead of having to call lawyers everytime they want to return fire. I remember that when the US won wars decisively, the armed forces used to destroy entire cities.
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Old 04-09-07, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
We would have by now if All Criminals(and Terrorists) Love Us types didn't keep suing. Now there is a law in place, the trials are starting(remember Hicks pleading guilty?)
Now, bhk, think about this... for five years, nothing happened, and nobody was charged... then lawsuits forced the Bush Administration to start holding trials... and now some of the prisoners actually know what they're being held for. Isn't that completely messed up? Five years later, we're just now getting around to charging people? And all the while, we've been torturing them, humiliating them, holding them in solitary confinement, subjecting them to sleep deprivation and stress positions? These people are starving themselves to death, and you're complaint is that some of them actually are beginning to be treated like human beings.

And then, when I call you on this astonishing lack of humanity, your response is:
Originally Posted by bhk
That's kind of wrong, taking it to a personal level like that.
You can't have it both ways. You can't walk around advocating torture and wanton murder, and then whine when about somebody "taking it to a personal level". That's what the problem is -- you're not taking any of this on a "personal level". To you, these aren't human beings being held in Guantanamo, they're thugs, black-hat villains, repugnant animals, every one of them, and you know this to be true because that's what the Bush Administration tells you they are. That's what the problem is with the neocons specifically, and the GOP in general -- all they see are the generalities, the stereotypes, the "good guys" and "evil-doers". It's looking at someone from another culture, another land, and seeing someone "less than human". It's repugnant, and it's anti-American, and I have no patience or pity for it.
Originally Posted by bhk
The military is there to kill people and break things. That's what they should be allowed to do instead of having to call lawyers everytime they want to return fire. I remember that when the US won wars decisively, the armed forces used to destroy entire cities.
Case in point. What you call "winning a war decisively" involves the death of millions of innocent people. When we have a nation like Nazi Germany, that may be the only alternative, but with counter-insurgency? That proposition is just barbarous.
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Old 04-09-07, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I think this is disturbing news to those who were sure we weren't feeding them.


Let's see how long this strike lasts.
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Old 04-09-07, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
Now, bhk, think about this... for five years, nothing happened, and nobody was charged... then lawsuits forced the Bush Administration to start holding trials... and now some of the prisoners actually know what they're being held for. Isn't that completely messed up? Five years later, we're just now getting around to charging people? And all the while, we've been torturing them, humiliating them, holding them in solitary confinement, subjecting them to sleep deprivation and stress positions? These people are starving themselves to death, and you're complaint is that some of them actually are beginning to be treated like human beings.
The trials would have started a long time ago if not for All Communists Love Us types.

And then, when I call you on this astonishing lack of humanity, your response is:
You can't have it both ways. You can't walk around advocating torture and wanton murder, and then whine when about somebody "taking it to a personal level". That's what the problem is -- you're not taking any of this on a "personal level".
Oh no I'm not whining. If you want to see some real whining, imply that those anti-american, blame america first morons(or morans) in that parade are on the terrorists side. You'll see some whining then.


To you, these aren't human beings being held in Guantanamo, they're thugs, black-hat villains, repugnant animals, every one of them, and you know this to be true because that's what the Bush Administration tells you they are.
Boy, you complain about someone you think is whining and then you whine out this post? Where are you? I'll call the Waaambulance for you.
That's what the problem is with the neocons specifically, and the GOP in general -- all they see are the generalities, the stereotypes, the "good guys" and "evil-doers". It's looking at someone from another culture, another land, and seeing someone "less than human". It's repugnant, and it's anti-American, and I have no patience or pity for it.
This is funny because I'm actually from another land and another culture.
The problem with the 60's type liberals is that they can't or don't want to recognize people who want to kill them and others as the enemy. That somehow offends their politically correct sensibilities.
Case in point. What you call "winning a war decisively" involves the death of millions of innocent people. When we have a nation like Nazi Germany, that may be the only alternative, but with counter-insurgency? That proposition is just barbarous.
Unfortunately, this war seems to be run by lawyers who are demanding our troops fight with one hand behind their back. Our troops should be given more latitude and not be second guessed every step of the way by the civilian leadership.
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Old 04-09-07, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
I think its time to close Guantanamo, anyone else? What purpose does it serve except as a black eye to our reputation domestically and internationally?
I agree. Close it. Make sure the prisoners are still there though and the guards take the keys with them.
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Old 04-09-07, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
The trials would have started a long time ago if not for All Communists Love Us types.
How. How how how. How would the trials have started earlier if there weren't lawyers pushing the Administration. How? How?

You know, the words "how" and "ow" are just one letter apart. I know this from personal experience right now. My brain hurts from trying to decipher the logic behind this statement. Ow. Ow ow ow.

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Old 04-09-07, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
How. How how how. How would the trials have started earlier if there weren't lawyers pushing the Administration. How? How?
[
1. Bush Administration was going to use military tribunals.

2. ACLU sued in 9th Circuit Court(IIRC).

3. Case went to the SC after decision.

4. SC gives decision that Congress must OK military tribunals.

5. Congress OKs military tribunals.

6. Bush Administration restarts military tribunals.

All in all the suit essentially put the detainnees in limbo for two years.

You know, the words "how" and "ow" are just one letter apart. I know this from personal experience right now. My brain hurts from trying to decipher the logic behind this statement. Ow. Ow ow ow.

Take an aspirin
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