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Aren't there always going to be poor people?

Old 02-21-07, 04:06 AM
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Aren't there always going to be poor people?

I get so frustrated with politicians always bringing up the poor. It always seems like such a calculated move to win votes. I mean, who is just going to come out and say they hate poor people? It doesn't make sense to me that one day someone like John Edwards can give a speech we've heard a million times about how we need to eradicate poverty and then the next day he moves into the biggest house in his county. I just have such a negative view about poverty especially when it comes to politics. I get the feeling that its all just to win votes and none of them really care. The reason: they all know that poverty will always exist.

Isn't that true? Just think about it.

First of all, there's no way to totally eliminate homelessness and unemployment or any of the things that cause people to be poor. There's no way to guarantee that everyone in America is receiving some sort of weekly/biweekly/monthly (whatever format) 'stay above the poverty line' checks. Even if there was some sort of system for that there will always be people not in the system, falling through the cracks, people falling into poverty that werent before.

Second of all, even if everyone started making a lot of money, enough money to not be what we think of today as poor, the economy would just adjust to that. The economy is set up this way. There will always be poor, middle class and rich. Lets just say that everyone that was poor in todays standards started making at least $50,000 next year, its not like poverty would be gone. The economy would just adjust to this all this new money in the system. Poverty won't ever be erased it will just get a new definition. Probably one day poor people will be millionaires.
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Old 02-21-07, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by IMRICKJAMES
I get so frustrated with politicians always bringing up the poor. It always seems like such a calculated move to win votes. I mean, who is just going to come out and say they hate poor people? It doesn't make sense to me that one day someone like John Edwards can give a speech we've heard a million times about how we need to eradicate poverty and then the next day he moves into the biggest house in his county. I just have such a negative view about poverty especially when it comes to politics. I get the feeling that its all just to win votes and none of them really care. The reason: they all know that poverty will always exist.

Isn't that true? Just think about it.
You mean politicians manipulating the public for their own gain? wow, news to me!

First of all, there's no way to totally eliminate homelessness and unemployment or any of the things that cause people to be poor.
Those are symptoms of being poor, not causes.

There's no way to guarantee that everyone in America is receiving some sort of weekly/biweekly/monthly (whatever format) 'stay above the poverty line' checks. Even if there was some sort of system for that there will always be people not in the system, falling through the cracks, people falling into poverty that werent before.
So both capitalism and the bureaucracy created by socialism are failures?

Second of all, even if everyone started making a lot of money, enough money to not be what we think of today as poor, the economy would just adjust to that. The economy is set up this way. There will always be poor, middle class and rich. Lets just say that everyone that was poor in todays standards started making at least $50,000 next year, its not like poverty would be gone. The economy would just adjust to this all this new money in the system. Poverty won't ever be erased it will just get a new definition. Probably one day poor people will be millionaires.
I think you're confusing the standard of living with inflation.
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Old 02-21-07, 05:42 AM
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Ummm Im pretty sure unemployment can cause someone to be poor. I think you got that mixed up.

I'm not confusing standard of living with inflation. The more I think about it the more it seems an economic fact that there will always be poor people, there will always be a middle class and always be an upper class. Its just how big each class will be that can change.
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Old 02-21-07, 06:25 AM
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You could take all the wealth in the United States and divide it equally among its citizens.

In ten years, the ones who are poor now, will be poor again.
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Old 02-21-07, 07:28 AM
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crazyroning > exactly.

Anyways, poor now used to be rich. Poor is a relative term, branding the group that differs from the group of "rich". I don't see anything happening the next decades that will eradicate poverty. Also, politicans usually only treat national poverty. Why are nationals from a moral perspective worth more than say 100 million starving Africans?

Ending poverty is a total utopia. What is not a total utopia, however, is that someday machines, robots, and values in general will be so abundant that man can pursue his own interests rather than work as much, and I think by then the standards of living for poor people will be so high that one simply cannot describe them as "poor".
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Old 02-21-07, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Superboy
Those are symptoms of being poor, not causes.
Did I miss something? Is it actually 1857? The theory of poverty as a social disease went out the window over a hundred years ago.
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Old 02-21-07, 10:43 AM
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What's the theory now? Rich people taking money away from the poor?
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Old 02-21-07, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
What's the theory now? Rich people taking money away from the poor?
No, but I think it's fairly discredited to suggest that unemployment or homelessness are symptoms of poverty. I mean, that's kind of a statement. That's pretty close to the old idea of poverty as a moral failing.
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Old 02-21-07, 11:47 AM
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Communism!!

Ok...not really.

There will always be poor people. Politicians will always do things for votes. None of this is 'news'. I think the better question is, "How do we address these problems?"

-p
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Old 02-21-07, 11:52 AM
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As long as there are people who make bad decisions with money, buy things they cannot afford, have children they cannot afford, go into debt, expect the government to support them, have no education nor work skills, and are lazy, there will be poor people.

The problem is when these things are passed down from generation to generation so that a family line stays in poverty forever. Of course there are plenty of examples of families who have stopped the cycle and are not poor anymore.
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Old 02-21-07, 03:30 PM
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Poor people deserve what they get! They should work harder!

Obviously, some of you haven't experienced being poor or even know anyone who is because your definitions and descriptions are what the imagination comes up with when you don't have any personal experience. Maybe someday you will become poor and you can experience it first-hand.

Annnnndddd that means not living with mommy.

That means not driving your new Subaru. Or your new Goatee-lookin' Jetta.

I agree there are certain groups within the poor class who are in a stupid cycle and have too many kids, and I don't feel sorry for them. However, we do have a section of the poor class who really do try, but they do need help as well.

And making bad decisions with money is just barely scraping the surface of why people are poor. It has to do mostly with being overwhelmed from a bad situation like unforeseen medical bills which spiral their lives into losing their home, and then the streets. It also has to do with parents who spend all their money on themselves and don't take care of their own children, and those children are forced to leave home in order to make any type of difference in their lives.

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Old 02-21-07, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Poor people deserve what they get! They should work harder!

Obviously, some of you haven't experienced being poor or even know anyone who is because your definitions and descriptions are what the imagination comes up with when you don't have any personal experience. Maybe someday you will become poor and you can experience it first-hand.

Annnnndddd that means not living with mommy.

That means not driving your new Subaru. Or your new Goatee-lookin' Jetta.

I agree there are certain groups within the poor class who are in a stupid cycle and have too many kids, and I don't feel sorry for them. However, we do have a section of the poor class who really do try, but they do need help as well.

And making bad decisions with money is just barely scraping the surface of why people are poor. It has to do mostly with being overwhelmed from a bad situation like unforeseen medical bills which spiral their lives into losing their home, and then the streets. It also has to do with parents who spend all their money on themselves and don't take care of their own children, and those children are forced to leave home in order to make any type of difference in their lives.
No one said that they deserve what they get. However it all boils down to personal decisions at some point along the line or not doing what it takes to break the cycle. Not saying that is right or wrong, but it is reality. And another reality is that people who are poor now may have no answer or way out in the short term, but their future generations absolutely have a way out of being poor if they make smart decisions.
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Old 02-21-07, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Poor people deserve what they get! They should work harder!

Obviously, some of you haven't experienced being poor or even know anyone who is because your definitions and descriptions are what the imagination comes up with when you don't have any personal experience. Maybe someday you will become poor and you can experience it first-hand.
I know a lot of people who didn't have money, and they never considered themselves poor. "Poor" in our society generally is a state of mind, because we have more wealth than anyone else.

But then, my relatives, friends, etc. that didn't have money did do a few things....they worked any job they could find, they didn't watch more than an hour of tv a day (CRAZY!!!), they didn't get divorced or have kids out of wedlock.
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Old 02-21-07, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I know a lot of people who didn't have money, and they never considered themselves poor. "Poor" in our society generally is a state of mind, because we have more wealth than anyone else.

But then, my relatives, friends, etc. that didn't have money did do a few things....they worked any job they could find, they didn't watch more than an hour of tv a day (CRAZY!!!), they didn't get divorced or have kids out of wedlock.
[kvrdave]I was agreeing with you until that line about TV. Take that back. [/kvrdave]

There will always be poor people because there will always be a group of people that will make poor choices.
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Old 02-21-07, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
[kvrdave]I was agreeing with you until that line about TV. Take that back. [/kvrdave]

There will always be poor people because there will always be a group of people that will make poor choices.
There will also be some people who are poor, who will climb OUT of poverty if given the opportunities. Shall we take away those opportunities just because not ALL of them will make it?
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Old 02-21-07, 07:48 PM
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until we get star trek type tech, with basically limitless energy production, and replicators tied into that energy that allow basically infinite manufacuring and food production yes, we will have poor people
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Old 02-21-07, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by IMRICKJAMES
Ummm Im pretty sure unemployment can cause someone to be poor. I think you got that mixed up.
If everyone had the same odds of finding a decent paying job, that would be true. However, it's not true. Plus, you forgot the fact that money itself makes it easy to make money. Employment status has nothing to do with it. For example: Paris Hilton has never worked a day in her life. And yet, she's not poor. There are people who have worked everyday of their life since it was legal to do so, and are still poor.

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Old 02-21-07, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
There will always be poor people because there will always be a group of people that will make poor choices.
I have not been to India but I think it's safe to say that country is fairly primitive. So what poor choices did the people who live in tribal areas make? If one manages to leave his village and find success somewhere else, does this mean the rest of the village just made poor choices?

Point is that your simplistic rationale and generalization aren't going to hold up in the real world where everyone is different and life just deals some people an unfortunate hand. You might like to think that the playing field is always even, but it's not.
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Old 02-21-07, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger
I have not been to India but I think it's safe to say that country is fairly primitive. So what poor choices did the people who live in tribal areas make? If one manages to leave his village and find success somewhere else, does this mean the rest of the village just made poor choices?
Amazingly the ones that spend their money on drugs and alcohol have a much worse standard of living even among the tribals.

Point is that your simplistic rationale and generalization aren't going to hold up in the real world where everyone is different and life just deals some people an unfortunate hand. You might like to think that the playing field is always even, but it's not.
No amount of tax money thrown at it will even the playing field. Ever. For most able bodied and able minded humans in this country, poverty is usually a direct result of the choices they make in their lives.

Last edited by bhk; 02-21-07 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 02-21-07, 09:39 PM
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"Good point. There are always going to be poor people. Why do anything about it?"

-- Jesus of Nazareth

Last edited by NCMojo; 02-21-07 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 02-21-07, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I know a lot of people who didn't have money, and they never considered themselves poor. "Poor" in our society generally is a state of mind, because we have more wealth than anyone else.

But then, my relatives, friends, etc. that didn't have money did do a few things....they worked any job they could find, they didn't watch more than an hour of tv a day (CRAZY!!!), they didn't get divorced or have kids out of wedlock.
Well, that's a good point. I was referring to poor not as a state of mind, but as a matter of fact. I agree, we have many who think they are poor, but manage to do quite well.
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Old 02-21-07, 09:45 PM
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some people choose a life of asceticism
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Old 02-21-07, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
"Good point. There are always going to be poor people. Why do anything about it?"

-- Jesus of Nazareth
It would be nice if you would agree with everything he said.
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Old 02-21-07, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
"Good point. There are always going to be poor people. Why do anything about it?"

-- Jesus of Nazareth
There's a difference between an individual making a choice to help someone and Caeser making that person do it.
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Old 02-21-07, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
It would be nice if you would agree with everything he said.
Wouldn't it be nice if we all agreed with everything he said???
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