Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events
Reload this Page >

The MAIN Iran Thread: Eventual Confrontation

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

The MAIN Iran Thread: Eventual Confrontation

Old 12-04-07, 12:58 PM
  #276  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Working for Gizmonic Institute
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
I paraphrased because I don't remember the exact wording of the reporter. My comment wasn't about the facts of the case. My comment was about his response. It doesn't even address the issue.


The vote was for his being able to seek re-elections indefinitely. Why would a dictator bother with elections AT ALL?? The election process itself IS democratic.
It wasn't just about term limits. It also had to do with increasing the President's term (this after his term was increased in the Constitutional referendum in 1999 from five to six years.) All told, there were 69 changes to the Venezuelan Constitutions 350 articles. Only one was about removing term limits.
Old 12-04-07, 01:02 PM
  #277  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wendersfan
No, and that's not even close to what I said.
You brought up Mugabe and the rigging of elections. Therefore, that IS what you implied. Obviously, I know that's not what you meant, but then you should've drawn a different example to make your point.
Old 12-04-07, 01:04 PM
  #278  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 32,956
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
You asked why a dictator would hold elections. I responded that it gives the verisimilitude of democracy, and cited Mugabe as an example of a dictator who has been subject to the electoral process, or at least the illusion of the democratic process.
Old 12-04-07, 01:06 PM
  #279  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by crazyronin
It wasn't just about term limits. It also had to do with increasing the President's term (this after his term was increased in the Constitutional referendum in 1999 from five to six years.) All told, there were 69 changes to the Venezuelan Constitutions 350 articles. Only one was about removing term limits.
I am merely summarizing. This isn't about my stance regarding the vote. In fact, I'm satisfied that there was a vote at all, and that Chavez accepted an outcome that did not favor him. Though I would have a hard time losing sleep if the outcome favored Chavez since it doesn't really affect my life on a personal level. However, the issue IS relevant in the world of politics. My comment is regarding Bush and the obvious lack of thought he has given to it.

Last edited by hahn; 12-04-07 at 01:08 PM.
Old 12-04-07, 01:09 PM
  #280  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Working for Gizmonic Institute
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
I paraphrased because I don't remember the exact wording of the reporter.
I heard the question. The reporter made the factually incorrect statement that she was being flogged because she was raped.

My comment wasn't about the facts of the case. My comment was about his response. It doesn't even address the issue.
Ah, you're waiting for a politician to give a direct answer to a reporter's question. My advice: Don't hold your breath.

BTW What does a factually incorrect question about the Saud judicial system have to do with Iran?

Last edited by crazyronin; 12-04-07 at 01:16 PM. Reason: woops, meant Iran
Old 12-04-07, 01:10 PM
  #281  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wendersfan
You asked why a dictator would hold elections. I responded that it gives the verisimilitude of democracy, and cited Mugabe as an example of a dictator who has been subject to the electoral process, or at least the illusion of the democratic process.
Yes. And THUS, you have implied that the Venezuelan electoral process is an illusion. You're claiming that I've misrepresented your argument. What part?
Old 12-04-07, 01:14 PM
  #282  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 32,956
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
Yes. And THUS, you have implied that the Venezuelan electoral process is an illusion. That this most recent election is an illusion. What are you saying that I've inferred incorrectly?
I guess for me to have implied that, I would have to agree with the following assumptions:
  1. Chavez really is a "dictator", which, if true, means more than "we don't like him and he doesn't like us."
  2. Chavez is unpopular enough that he feels his legitimate right to rule is endangered
  3. Chavez might not try to get this constitutional change enacted in a year or two, now knowing better the public "temperature" on this issue
I don't know if I agree with any of the above assumptions, let alone all three.
Old 12-04-07, 01:24 PM
  #283  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by classicman2
Oh, I believe there are facts other politics in the report.
what facts?

someone told him offline that since Iraq is such a success that we won't support you in an attack on Iran. no money or maybe even the generals or members of his cabinet threatened to resign.

the US just couldn't stop the rhetoric so they made up this NIE and made someone put information in there that they wanted in there
Old 12-04-07, 02:11 PM
  #284  
bhk
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Right of Atilla The Hun
Posts: 19,749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Was the NIE written by the same people that told us there were stockpiles of WMD in Iraq?
Old 12-04-07, 02:13 PM
  #285  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
does it really matter?
Old 12-04-07, 02:17 PM
  #286  
DVD Talk Ruler
 
General Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 21,518
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by al_bundy
someone told him offline that since Iraq is such a success that we won't support you in an attack on Iran. no money or maybe even the generals or members of his cabinet threatened to resign.

the US just couldn't stop the rhetoric so they made up this NIE and made someone put information in there that they wanted in there
does it really matter?

Read my post #11 of this thread. Whether your take on it is right or my take on it is right the bottom line is we aren't going into Iran.
Old 12-04-07, 02:34 PM
  #287  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 36,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
The vote was for his being able to seek re-elections indefinitely. Why would a dictator bother with elections AT ALL?? The election process itself IS democratic. As for term limits, the prime ministers of Japan, Australia, the U.K., and Canada, do NOT have term limits. Does that define a dictatorship?
maybe he was talking about the provisions that would let Chavez suspend civil rights by declaring an emergeny. that is sounding close to a dictatorship. there are tons of things to fault Bush on, I dont think that comment is one of them
Old 12-04-07, 02:37 PM
  #288  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 32,956
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
As for term limits, the prime ministers of Japan, Australia, the U.K., and Canada, do NOT have term limits. Does that define a dictatorship?
Prime ministers are not presidents, and parliamentary systems are not presidential systems. This is a prototypical "apples v. oranges" comparison.
Old 12-04-07, 02:40 PM
  #289  
bhk
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Right of Atilla The Hun
Posts: 19,749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
'US report should not deter world'


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPost.com staff and Yaakov Katz , THE JERUSALEM POST Dec. 4, 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The threat of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons must not be underestimated, was the message government officials sent out on Tuesday after the release of a US intelligence report claiming that Teheran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 but was continuing to enrich uranium.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that he was familiar with the report that had been shown to him by US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates during the Annapolis peace summit last week.

"I am familiar with the American intelligence assessment," Barak said following a meeting with Hungarian Chief of Staff Gen. Andras Havril. "Nevertheless, I say again that Iran is today a central threat on the world and the State of Israel."

He said that the world and Israel needed to take steps to confront the threat and to thwart it.

"There is a lot that can be done with regard to the Iranian nuclear program but it is important to mention that words do not stop missiles," the defense minister said. "Action is needed in the form of sanctions, in the diplomatic sphere and in other spheres as well."


Last month, Barak said that a military operation was a viable option for dealing with the Iranian nuclear threat.

"We cannot take any option off the table and we need to study operational aspects," Barak said at a Labor Party meeting in Beersheba. "This is not just for the coming months but also for the coming two years."

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said at the opening of a meeting with the Italian deputy prime minister that the report only emphasizes and strengthens the need for the international community to tighten sanctions on Iran so that it will not be able to produce nuclear weapons.

According to Olmert, the report's findings were brought up during his meetings with Washington officials soon after the Middle East Peace conference in Annapolis, Maryland last week.

Regardless of the fact that the report said that Iran had halted its nuclear weapons plan, the fact was that such a plan did indeed exist until 2003.

"The US still plans to continue to try to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. We will make every effort - first and foremost with our friends in the US - to prevent the production of this type of weapon," he said.


In response to Israeli speculation that the report's findings would weaken American-backed support for military action against Iran, Barak emphasized that the issue of its nuclear program was still relevant.

"It is possible that this is correct, but I do not think that it is our place to make assessments about US [policy]. It is our responsibility to ensure that the correct things are done. Constantly speaking about the Iranian threat, as we have done recently, is not the right thing to do… words do not stop missiles," Barak told Army Radio.

"There are differences in the assessments of different organizations in the world about this, and only time will tell who is right," he added.

National Infrastructures Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said that irrespective of the US intelligence report, "Israel must continue to act in every way against the Iranian nuclear threat."

"This report is totally fine, it makes me smile, but on the other hand Israel and the defense establishment are working under the premise that Iran is in fact heading directly towards [a nuclear weapon]" Ben Eliezer told Army Radio, adding, "This is exactly one of the issues over which the state of Israel must take no risk."

Similarly, government officials said Monday night that the new report had not lessened Israeli concerns, since enriched uranium can be used both for civilian and military purposes.

According to the report, Iran halted its nuclear weapons development program in the fall of 2003 under international pressure but is continuing to enrich uranium. That means it may still be able to develop a weapon between 2010 and 2015, senior US intelligence officials said Monday.

Herb Keinon and AP contributed to this report.
I'd trust Israel's assessment more than US intelligence on this.
Old 12-04-07, 02:54 PM
  #290  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Posts: 123,192
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Of course you do. If the US had an assessment that was more alarming than Israel's, you'd trust the American assessment.
Old 12-04-07, 03:19 PM
  #291  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: DE
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I watched the press conference. He seems like he might not even be trying anymore. It seems like he might have known that they had ceased their program whilst he was ratcheting up the WW3 rhetoric during the last several years.
Old 12-04-07, 04:57 PM
  #292  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Red Dog
Of course you do. If the US had an assessment that was more alarming than Israel's, you'd trust the American assessment.
Bingo.
Old 12-04-07, 04:59 PM
  #293  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wendersfan
Prime ministers are not presidents, and parliamentary systems are not presidential systems. This is a prototypical "apples v. oranges" comparison.
We're talking about democratic systems, no? Systems in which there is an election to decide upon a leader. The pros and cons of term limits are not inherent in presidencies, as opposed to prime ministers. It's not apples vs oranges. It's a red apple vs a green apple. You are merely using semantics to distract from the actual point here. Are you purposefully doing this, or do you actually not see the relevance of the comparison? At one time, we ourselves did not have term limits for presidency. The relevancy in the context of THIS discussion is that eliminating term limits does not indicate a dictatorship, as was suggested. Term limits is a matter of opinion and preferential choice in all democratic societies, not a metric for determining whether a president/prime minister is a dictator or not. But I suppose it's much easier for you to just dismiss it with a declaration of "apples vs oranges".

Last edited by hahn; 12-04-07 at 05:10 PM.
Old 12-04-07, 05:04 PM
  #294  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by darkessenz
I watched the press conference. He seems like he might not even be trying anymore. It seems like he might have known that they had ceased their program whilst he was ratcheting up the WW3 rhetoric during the last several years.
I had a similar impression. Except that I think it's not so much of lack of effort as it is that he doesn't have any good answers. It's like he doesn't even understand the questions. He just hears certain keywords, and then he goes off on some tangent babbling incoherently in the hopes that the media people will change the topics because they're baffled. How on earth anyone continues to stand behind him is what's baffling.
Old 12-04-07, 05:17 PM
  #295  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 32,956
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by hahn
We're talking about democratic systems, no? Systems in which there is an election to decide upon a leader.
Not exactly. Presidents and prime ministers are very different types of leaders, and they are chosen in very different ways. In fact, it's a stretch to state that prime ministers are chosen by the people at all.
Originally Posted by hahn
But I suppose it's much easier for you to just dismiss it with a declaration of "apples vs oranges".
No, I just didn't think I'd have to write a primer on comparative government. If I must it will have to wait until later in the week.
Old 12-04-07, 05:21 PM
  #296  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sen. Biden has some rather harsh words to say about the Bush Admin. on the issue of Iran & the previous WWIII rhetoric by this president. He's on Hardball.

Biden said one good thing will come from this - 'it'll make it considerably more difficult for the cowboys to go to war considering this latest revelation.'
Old 12-04-07, 06:24 PM
  #297  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do you'll believe that this report further damages Bush's credibility?

Or do you believe his credibility has already been damaged so much that it's impossible to damage it further?
Old 12-04-07, 06:50 PM
  #298  
DVD Talk Ruler
 
General Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 21,518
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I don't think it matters one bit. Had Bush really felt we should go to war, we would have gone to war. Biden and the democrats talk a big game but at the end of the day they would have rolled over (forget end of day.. probably around lunch time). Bush never did plan to go to war with Iran so I don't see that it even matters. As far as Bush's credibility goes - it's pretty much in the toilet. I don't trust most of what he says especially in regards to lies about immigration.
Old 12-04-07, 08:03 PM
  #299  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Lyon Estates
Posts: 10,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sweet Georgia Brown! Would someone please teach the fucking 'leader of the free world's how to pronounce 'nuclear?'
Old 12-04-07, 08:04 PM
  #300  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 8,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wendersfan
Not exactly. Presidents and prime ministers are very different types of leaders, and they are chosen in very different ways. In fact, it's a stretch to state that prime ministers are chosen by the people at all.
No, I just didn't think I'd have to write a primer on comparative government. If I must it will have to wait until later in the week.
Yeah. I'm done with this "debate". There's no point in arguing with someone who doesn't even follow his own posts. This has nothing to do with comparative government, but for some odd reason, you seem to think it does. Or that I'm someone who cares about the depth of your understanding of government. You dug a hole with your Mugabe comparison to Chavez, and now you're just arguing irrelevant technicalities, hoping it adds up to some kind of point you can win.

Last edited by hahn; 12-04-07 at 08:18 PM.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.