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Children of Men: The Political Discussion...

Old 01-17-07, 10:18 PM
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Children of Men: The Political Discussion...

Spoiler alert: don't read this thread if you haven't seen the movie and want to. I won't post any spoilers in this first post, but no guarantees after that.

Saw this movie last week and at first I didn't know what to think. Call it shock at realizing I just saw a sci-fi classic that finally has surpassed Gattaca. I found that I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since last week. My interpretation of the central concept is that it is a portrayal of a future world that has fallen apart as a consequence of a struggle between two extreme opposing forces: fascism and terrorism. The goal for each is to destroy the other. Neither can be considered a force for good, since in their fanaticism, they will do almost anything to achieve 'destruction of the enemy'. The rest of the movie was almost incidental to this central premise. Their hatred for each other is so extreme that even when the future of mankind is doomed and there is nothing to live for, they will not lay down their weapons or put aside their hatred. They will will not cease their treachery, deception, or cruelty. It appears that self-destruction is a part of human nature. Perhaps it is the universe's (or God's) way of keeping mankind in check.

The scary thing is how easy it is to believe this movie to be a realistic portrayal of our own future. When we start placing terrorism as a priority above all else, we have started down that path to fascism. Because truly fighting terrorism requires a suspension of most, if not all civil liberties. When we as a society become okay with that, we will in fact, become fascists. The irony is that even in doing so, we will not be able to destroy terrorism. No more than terrorists can destroy our freedom. The only people that can really destroy our freedoms are ourselves. Likewise, the only people that can destroy terrorism are the terrorists themselves when they decide its not worth it anymore. Will an increasing body count really make them think it's not worth it anymore or will it only make them feel more strongly? How much are we as a society willing to give up in order fight terrorists? Is it worth it?

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Old 01-17-07, 10:37 PM
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The only people that can really destroy our freedoms are ourselves.
BS. Think about this when you are taking a flight. All those measures are taken because there are people who for basically no reason want to cause death and destruction.
Likewise, the only people that can destroy terrorism are the terrorists themselves when they decide its not worth it anymore. Will an increasing body count really make them think it's not worth it anymore or will it only make them feel more strongly?
They don't mind the body count when they inflict it. When we inflict it, they don't like it so much. That is why they still need to die but at a time of our choosing rather than a time of their choosing.

How much are we as a society willing to give up in order fight terrorists? Is it worth it?
When society as a whole decides to convert to Islam terrorists will stop. On second thought, they won't they'll still want to kill us depending on which branch or sect of Islam we'll convert to. Over and over again, the main theme and goal of the Islamofascists is to take back the territories they had conquered in the past and make Islamic law world wide. Despite different terrorists(including OBL) saying this people still stick to their PC notion that if only we change our foreign policy or dependance on oil or do some other silly thing, the terrorists will stop.
It appears that self-destruction is a part of human nature. Perhaps it is the universe's (or God's) way of keeping mankind in check.
It isn't that, its that people have egos and want things run only the way they think things should be run.

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Old 01-17-07, 11:53 PM
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Old 01-18-07, 12:18 AM
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I totally didnt see the film that way at all...

Ive discussed this in the MOVIE TALK THREAD, but again I'll ask.

For MOST of the film we've been told how EEEEEEVIL the government is, yet I saw no proof except in the over the top scene entering the refugee camp.

First of all, the government in the movie was NOT fighting terrorism, they were holding back a MASSIVE wave of refugees from EVERY country on earth...the films SHOWS us that Europe, America and elswhere are in RUIN, yet GB is still plugging along....so rather than open the borders to 3 BILLION refugees they close the borders and deport refugees.


What the hell else are they supposed to do?

The movie was geared towords people like you hahn, people who distrust the government and think anti-terror and immigration controls are inherently evil, but to me, who doesnt share the same view, it was a confusing mess with massive plot holes.

The way I saw it, the people living in England in the film were the freest people on the planet.


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the movie inadvertantly makes the opposite point that your making...the government troops instantly stopped fighting when they saw the baby, while the fishies fired on the troops. There was no indication that the government would ever harm the child, the only people who believd they would were paranoid conspiricy theorists/terrorists.

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Old 01-18-07, 12:24 AM
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Did I miss your v for vendetta movie review?

I think your point about the movie having some connection with today's world is a bit extreme.

I think the Alliance of Serenity/Firefly might be a more accurate following from today's world. They might really have good intentions but end up causing some harm.
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Old 01-18-07, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
It isn't that, its that people have egos and want things run only the way they think things should be run.
And that means it's not self-destructive?

Originally Posted by bhk
When society as a whole decides to convert to Islam terrorists will stop. On second thought, they won't they'll still want to kill us depending on which branch or sect of Islam we'll convert to. Over and over again, the main theme and goal of the Islamofascists is to take back the territories they had conquered in the past and make Islamic law world wide. Despite different terrorists(including OBL) saying this people still stick to their PC notion that if only we change our foreign policy or dependance on oil or do some other silly thing, the terrorists will stop.
Then why haven't terrorists started waging war on...say Switzerland. Or New Zealand. Or Australia. China? Canada? Sweden, Norway, Finland, or Denmark? They started because we got involved and interfered in their affairs. And now we seem to be insisting that we kill them all (at least you are). And likewise, they are probably saying the same thing. Are you seriously saying you're not seeing the point I made in the first post?? I'll repeat and make it shorter: they want to kill us all. You want to kill them all. Now go back and read my first post. Actually read it rather than jump to conclusions as to what you think I wrote.

My opinion is that it's ridiculous (massive understatement) to think that they can achieve the goal (YOUR claim) of killing us all or converting us all to Islam if we don't attack with a military force. #1 Because where's the evidence that a military force would be effective against terrorism? #2 Just how helpless do you think American civilians are? #3 That's exactly what they're telling their people about us (that we're trying to kill them all) to rally them around, which goes to support my point precisely that people like you represent the opposite extreme of terrorism. A) Most of us Americans aren't trying to kill them all (yeah, yeah, you say terrorists, but really, admit it because it's obvious from your posts - you think of all Muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists) and B) Likewise, most Muslims aren't seeking to destroy us all. But I'm sure you have scientific evidence or at least a big poll to back up your claim, right? Finally, #4 Your words are not only grandiose, but pathologically paranoid.

Last edited by hahn; 01-18-07 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 01-18-07, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger
Did I miss your v for vendetta movie review?

I think your point about the movie having some connection with today's world is a bit extreme.

I think the Alliance of Serenity/Firefly might be a more accurate following from today's world. They might really have good intentions but end up causing some harm.
V for Vendetta was a good movie, but it differed from COM in that it tried to represent terrorism as heroic under a fascist regime. COM was far more in accurate in its portrayal in that both are bad and that both exist because of the other. And their battles cause a disruption and gradual erosion of society. A destruction of both civil liberties AND security. I find this to be dead on. It's not that it represents what's going on today, so much as it represents what COULD happen if we continue to escalate this "war on terrorism". It doesn't mean we stand idly and allow terrorists to do whatever they want. But it also means we have to know when to walk away and let people forget. The passion of extremism is short-lived, but only if we fight the instinct to draw attention to it.
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Old 01-18-07, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
I totally didnt see the film that way at all...

Ive discussed this in the MOVIE TALK THREAD, but again I'll ask.

For MOST of the film we've been told how EEEEEEVIL the government is, yet I saw no proof except in the over the top scene entering the refugee camp.

First of all, the government in the movie was NOT fighting terrorism, they were holding back a MASSIVE wave of refugees from EVERY country on earth...the films SHOWS us that Europe, America and elswhere are in RUIN, yet GB is still plugging along....so rather than open the borders to 3 BILLION refugees they close the borders and deport refugees.


What the hell else are they supposed to do?

The movie was geared towords people like you hahn, people who distrust the government and think anti-terror and immigration controls are inherently evil, but to me, who doesnt share the same view, it was a confusing mess with massive plot holes.

The way I saw it, the people living in England in the film were the freest people on the planet.


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the movie inadvertantly makes the opposite point that your making...the government troops instantly stopped fighting when they saw the baby, while the fishies fired on the troops. There was no indication that the government would ever harm the child, the only people who believd they would were paranoid conspiricy theorists/terrorists.
You've completely missed my point. I never said that the movie said that government was evil. Neither did the movie. It makes the point that both fascism AND terrorism are evil. The FISH group was not portrayed in a good light at all. They were quite willing to kill one another when they felt it threatened their goals. Likewise, the government in its attempts to fight terrorism didn't care, that they were killing innocent civilians in the process. An even bigger point that I already stated, was that their mutual hatred for another was so deep rooted that even the apocalypse wasn't enough to stop them from fighting. Even the miracle birth of a baby which provided the only hope for the survival of mankind, was only enough to make them stop fighting for like 30 seconds.
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Old 01-18-07, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
I totally didnt see the film that way at all...

Ive discussed this in the MOVIE TALK THREAD, but again I'll ask.

For MOST of the film we've been told how EEEEEEVIL the government is, yet I saw no proof except in the over the top scene entering the refugee camp.

First of all, the government in the movie was NOT fighting terrorism, they were holding back a MASSIVE wave of refugees from EVERY country on earth...the films SHOWS us that Europe, America and elswhere are in RUIN, yet GB is still plugging along....so rather than open the borders to 3 BILLION refugees they close the borders and deport refugees.


What the hell else are they supposed to do?

The movie was geared towords people like you hahn, people who distrust the government and think anti-terror and immigration controls are inherently evil, but to me, who doesnt share the same view, it was a confusing mess with massive plot holes.

The way I saw it, the people living in England in the film were the freest people on the planet.


Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the movie inadvertantly makes the opposite point that your making...the government troops instantly stopped fighting when they saw the baby, while the fishies fired on the troops. There was no indication that the government would ever harm the child, the only people who believd they would were paranoid conspiricy theorists/terrorists.
You've completely missed my point. Why don't you try reading what I wrote instead of jumping to pre-conceived notion of what I wrote? I never said that the movie said that government was evil. Neither did the movie. It makes the point that both fascism AND terrorism are evil. The FISH group was not portrayed in a good light at all. They were quite willing to kill one another when they felt it threatened their goals. Likewise, the government in its attempts to fight terrorism didn't care that they were killing innocent civilians in the process. Civil liberties were completely out the window too, as they couldn't even manage to treat refugees like human beings.

An even bigger point that I already stated, was that their mutual hatred for another was so deep rooted that even the apocalypse wasn't enough to stop them from fighting. Even the miracle birth of a baby which provided the only hope for the survival of mankind, was only enough to make them stop fighting for like 30 seconds. The only response to being attacked, is to attack back. It is the flaw of humanity that enables our self-destructive nature.
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Old 01-18-07, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazgul
How did I know this thread was going to be about the evil of Republicans?
Really? Quote me. I'm actually quite happy with the Republicans nowadays. They're making a return to sanity and are actually turning against Bush. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't really associate Bush with Republicans. I more associate him with assholism.

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Old 01-18-07, 09:12 AM
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And that means it's not self-destructive?
No, I gave the reason why we are.


Then why haven't terrorists started waging war on...say Switzerland. Or New Zealand. Or Australia. China? Canada? Sweden, Norway, Finland, or Denmark?
Seriously, you need to read more about the problems that the Moslem immigrants are causing in Australia, NZ, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark(I suggest looking up rape stats in the above countries). China is having the same sort of problems with their Moslem population.
Here are some articles for you to read:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...icle190268.ece
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=20552

My opinion is that it's ridiculous (massive understatement) to think that they can achieve the goal (YOUR claim) of killing us all or converting us all to Islam if we don't attack with a military force.
It's ridiculous to think that blowing up a bunch of women and children along with yourself is going to get you 72 virgins in heaven but they keep doing it.
#1 Because where's the evidence that a military force would be effective against terrorism?
How many terrorists trained in Afghanistan have flown airplanes into buildings in the past 5 years?

#2 Just how helpless do you think American civilians are?
They're not helpless, just apathetic because the old media still has power and they're doing their best to try to make people forget 9/11. As an example, they will gleefully show pics of Abu Graib but won't show people jumping out of the twin towers(even on the 9/11 commemoration day)

#3 That's exactly what they're telling their people about us (that we're trying to kill them all)
Listen to the mosque tape. Read that article that I posted in the Moslem/jihad thread. They're not telling their followers that at all. What they're telling their followers is that the kafirs(us) deserve to die because we support the pigs(Jews).

to rally them around, which goes to support my point precisely that people like you represent the opposite extreme of terrorism. A) Most of us Americans aren't trying to kill them all (yeah, yeah, you say terrorists, but really, admit it because it's obvious from your posts - you think of all Muslims as terrorists or potential terrorists)
I don't think that at all. Don't try to put words in people's mouths. What I don't do is to whitewash the problem, wring my hands and assign the blame to the victims of terrorism rather than the perpetrators.
B) Likewise, most Muslims aren't seeking to destroy us all. But I'm sure you have scientific evidence or at least a big poll to back up your claim, right?
The only scientific polls that I've seen on this subject indicate that around 25% of Moslems living in the UK want Sharia law there. Also around 10% support the goals and method of the London bombers. In nearly every election held for Moslem leadership positions in the UK and France, the radical candidates win around 1/3 of the vote.

Here's another poll, posted originally by ronin:



Finally, #4 Your words are not only grandiose, but pathologically paranoid.
Ah all those thousands of terrorism attacks listed on jihad watch are all figments of my imagination. Thanks I fell better now.

Last edited by bhk; 01-18-07 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 01-18-07, 10:38 AM
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Your right BHK, we should send all the Muslims to the moon, far far away from the rest of us.
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Old 01-18-07, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cinten
Your right BHK, we should send all the Muslims to the moon, far far away from the rest of us.
Your post is needed desperately in this thread:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481204
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Old 01-18-07, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Your post is needed desperately in this thread:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481204

I posted my response in their, already. However speaking of old threads happen to want to revise your claim that the deficit?

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread....ht=bush+defict
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Old 01-18-07, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
How many terrorists trained in Afghanistan have flown airplanes into buildings in the past 5 years?
This is as silly as the "they haven't attacked us since 9/11" argument. In the grand schem oof things, just have a look at stats on worlwide terrorism since 2001. You're never going to be able to pound terrorism into submission. Hahn is right, change will have to come from within.
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Old 01-18-07, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cinten
I posted my response in their, already. However speaking of old threads happen to want to revise your claim that the deficit?

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread....ht=bush+defict
Gee, the articles I posted on there supported my claim that the fed defecit was lower.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4343814.stm
US budget deficit shrinks in 2005

Robust economic growth has boosted tax revenues
The US budget deficit shrank to $319bn (180bn) last year as better economic conditions boosted tax revenues.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJBT81.html
[quote]Federal Deficit Now Lowest in 4 Years

Oct 11 2:20 PM US/Eastern

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER
AP Economics Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal deficit in the budget year that just ended fell to a four- year low of $247.7 billion _ a figure President Bush touted Wednesday as "proof that pro-growth policies work."
The deficit for the budget year that ended Sept. 30 was 22.3 percent lower than the $318.7 billion imbalance for 2005, handing Bush a welcome economic talking point as Republicans battle to hold onto control of Congress in the midterm elections.

What exactly do I need to revise there? That the media is conspiring to make Bush look good because they didn't add the war costs?

But typically, instead of actually doing the right thing, you're on the attack.

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Old 01-18-07, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by eXcentris
This is as silly as the "they haven't attacked us since 9/11" argument. In the grand schem oof things, just have a look at stats on worlwide terrorism since 2001. You're never going to be able to pound terrorism into submission. Hahn is right, change will have to come from within.
You can't eliminate a lot of things completely(like crime) but you don't wring the hand, throw them up and blame the victim. The world needs to make terrorism not as appealing to the Islamofascists. The world unfortunately is even too PC to bury suicide bombers body parts in pig intestines.
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Old 01-18-07, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
The world needs to make terrorism not as appealing to the Islamofascists. The world unfortunately is even too PC to bury suicide bombers body parts in pig intestines.
Sure, and I never said do nothing, but you're never going to change the mindset of extremists and make terrorism less appealing by trying to pound them into submission.

Do people that attack you on this forum make you change your extremist viewpoints? Surely that's something you can relate to.
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Old 01-18-07, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by eXcentris
Sure, and I never said do nothing, but you're never going to change the mindset of extremists and make terrorism less appealing by trying to pound them into submission.
No but pounding them into submission in the meantime is the safest thing to do. Fighting back and causing some damage to them is something they can relate to, not having hand wringing summits.
Do people that attack you on this forum make you change your extremist viewpoints? Surely that's something you can relate to.
The semi-personal attacks just make me laugh.
Besides, my views aren't extremist. They seem extremist to you because you're so far in lefty-land that Barney Frank's views would be seen by you as conservative.
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Old 01-18-07, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
No but pounding them into submission in the meantime is the safest thing to do.
Wrong. Again, please look at stats on terrorism worldwide since 2001.

Fighting back and causing some damage to them is something they can relate to, not having hand wringing summits.
You really think that people who have no problem blowing themselves up for a cause care? Then you have very little understanding of the mindset of Islamic fundamentalists.

The semi-personal attacks just make me laugh.
Besides, my views aren't extremist. They seem extremist to you because you're so far in lefty-land that Barney Frank's views would be seen by you as conservative.
Yes of course, in an extremist's mind, it's the others that are extremists, not them. And this from someone who proudly claims to be "To the right of Attila the Hun". If you think that on the spectrum of the North American mindset, I'm further to the left that you are to the right, then well...
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Old 01-18-07, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by eXcentris
Wrong. Again, please look at stats on terrorism worldwide since 2001.
We fought back in a significant way since 2001. Of course once the victims start fighting back the attackers will try to squash that. Of course we could have peace summits that the terrorists laugh at and that I don't think will help.

You really think that people who have no problem blowing themselves up for a cause care? Then you have very little understanding of the mindset of Islamic fundamentalists.

For something that you think they have a problem with, they seem to keep doing it with quite a lot of regularity. Maybe it isn't me that has a problem understanding the mindset.

Yes of course, in an extremist's mind, it's the others that are extremists, not them.
Physician, heal thyself.

And this from someone who proudly claims to be "To the right of Attila the Hun". If you think that on the spectrum of the North American mindset, I'm further to the left that you are to the right, then well...
I love that quote, it seems to get all the extreme leftists riled up. Hey, look, you're riled up enough to comment on it in a post.
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Old 01-18-07, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
The world unfortunately is even too PC to bury suicide bombers body parts in pig intestines.
So you would like to have them buried in pig intestines. No, you're not extreme at all. And I'm sure that would be quite effective at scaring the terrorists into submission.

There is a difference between fear and respect. It really is a shame that you are incapable of understanding that. It's a shame because you're probably still far from being the only person who thinks that fear will eventually lead to respect, or that respect doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by bhk
I love that quote, it seems to get all the extreme leftists riled up. Hey, look, you're riled up enough to comment on it in a post.
Yeah, if one gets irritated by your inflammatory comments, it's indisputable proof they're an extreme leftist. Good thing you're around to expose us all. We're probably a national security risk.

Last edited by hahn; 01-18-07 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 01-18-07, 01:19 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by hahn
So you would like to have them buried in pig intestines. No, you're not extreme at all. And I'm sure that would be quite effective at scaring the terrorists into submission.
The reason for doing it isn't because I'd like it.

The reason for doing it is that the Islamofascists think they are blowing themselves up for Allah and their place in heaven with the 72 Helen Thomases is assured. Burying them in pig intestines might give them pause in their own twisted logic that killing women and children actually assures a place in heaven for them.
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Old 01-18-07, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
The reason for doing it is that the Islamofascists think they are blowing themselves up for Allah and their place in heaven with the 72 Helen Thomases is assured.
There's nowhere for this discussion to go after this statement.

Now... have you seen the movie or not? Because if you haven't, why are you even in this thread?
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Old 01-18-07, 01:30 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by hahn
There's nowhere for this discussion to go after this statement.
OK.
Now... have you seen the movie or not? Because if you haven't, why are you even in this thread?
No. That's why I didn't comment on the plot part of your post. Only on the handwringing parts.

(I have read the summary on themoviespoiler. com though but still wouldn't comment on the plot aspects without seeing it.)

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