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View Poll Results: Do the Iraqis owe us a huge debt of gratitude like Bush says?
Yes because we freed them from a tyrant
11
19.64%
Yes but not as much as Bush says
3
5.36%
No, because we made their country much worse
15
26.79%
No, but maybe later in time when we win
3
5.36%
Bush owes the Iraqis an apology
24
42.86%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Do the Iraqis owe us a huge debt of gratitude?

Old 01-16-07, 10:44 PM
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Do the Iraqis owe us a huge debt of gratitude?

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Old 01-16-07, 10:47 PM
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Where's the "This question makes no sense" option?
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Old 01-16-07, 10:54 PM
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I watched today's interview with McNeil/Lehrer and Bush on PBS, and Bush is just wacked-out on his wishful thinking of Iraq. The guy is in his own world. But I've said this before. Hopefully his latest idea and its failure will seal his political coffin for the Iraqi Cause.

It is a shame though. We failed the Iraqi people miserably but we cannot risk further US deaths either. We come first. Our people come first.
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Old 01-16-07, 10:55 PM
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They owe us a huge debt of oil.
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Old 01-16-07, 11:05 PM
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We didn't encourage them to fight each other, but we also didn't go all-out and give them more assistance when they needed it several years ago. Now did we.

If you shoot a planes wings off in flight, are you going to blame the pilots for not landing the plane properly and saving its passengers? Because that first sentence is what your argument sounds like.
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Old 01-16-07, 11:57 PM
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"Thanks for 10 years of sanctions and 2 wars that completely destroyed our country and killed hundreds of thousands of our citizens. I hope that one day, we'll be as enlightened and as civilized as you are."

Ahmed.
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Old 01-17-07, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by eXcentris
"Thanks for 10 years of sanctions and 2 wars that completely destroyed our country and killed hundreds of thousands of our citizens. I hope that one day, we'll be as enlightened and as civilized as you are."

Ahmed.
Ahmed must have been a double major in Western Hypocrisy and American Disillusions.


His point is spot on though.
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Old 01-17-07, 12:22 AM
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WWII Germany != Iraq 2007.
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Old 01-17-07, 02:01 AM
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The Iraqis owe us cheap gas. My hippy friends said that the war was about cheap gas, and I want it.
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Old 01-17-07, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
It is my contention that any violence is the result of the specific character of a people and not the removal of dictatorships. Besides, if we're not to destabilize the region by challenging its despotisms, what options do we have then? I hope you realize we cannot simply disengage from the middle east either.
Cordon off L.A. and remove all the cops. Then turn off the power and see what happens. (You won't even have to start blowing stuff up before things go South.) Are L.A.'s inhabitants fundamentally savages who can only be controlled by force?

Law Enforcement is not something that was invented in the last 50 years in order to generate revenue from traffic tickets. It's been an integral part of any civilization for most of recorded history. You can't go knocking vital components out of a civilization for several years at a time and expect it to continue operating in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, that's precisely what the Bush administration did and is continuing to do. Iraq will not be saved by another 20,000 troops sent in to battle insurgents. Iraq needs law and order. That means police, not troops. (I wonder if Canada is still willing to send police to Iraq to train up Iraqis given how Bush responded the first time they offered...)

Last edited by Nutter; 01-17-07 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 01-17-07, 08:34 AM
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Since the reason we went into Iraq was due to our own self interest (WMD's), I feel the Iraqis don't owe us anything.
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Old 01-17-07, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nutter
Cordon off L.A. and remove all the cops. Then turn off the power and see what happens. (You won't even have to start blowing stuff up before things go South.) Are L.A.'s inhabitants fundamentally savages who can only be controlled by force?
Not really fair if you are going to use L.A.
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Old 01-17-07, 12:44 PM
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Korea is under American occupation?
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Old 01-17-07, 01:29 PM
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I don't believe you can charaterize the Franco dictatorship as brutal.

Many will argue that it was no more brutal than the Republic that proceeded it.
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Old 01-17-07, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eXcentris
"Thanks for 10 years of sanctions and 2 wars that completely destroyed our country and killed hundreds of thousands of our citizens. I hope that one day, we'll be as enlightened and as civilized as you are."

Ahmed.

Well Ahmed if your leader wasn't such an asshole none of that would have happened. But instead of fighting for yourself and making your life better by getting rid of the asshole (that kills hundreds of thousands of citizens by himself) just go ahead and sit there and be poor burning an American flag.
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Old 01-17-07, 01:51 PM
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I think we have enough "asshole" leaders to go around.

And just like Iraqis can't comprehend democracy, Americans cannot simply comprehend the type of oppression Iraqis were under with Saddam in power. If we're going to blame Iraqis for not taking out their own leader, we should at least understand and possibly even experience the same types of harassment and torture Saddam was famous for.
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Old 01-17-07, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
And just like Iraqis can't comprehend democracy, Americans cannot simply comprehend the type of oppression Iraqis were under with Saddam in power. If we're going to blame Iraqis for not taking out their own leader, we should at least understand and possibly even experience the same types of harassment and torture Saddam was famous for.
Very true.
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Old 01-17-07, 02:18 PM
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I can't believe they are still trotting out the "we went there to liberate them!" line. Anyone who paid attention when they sold this war knows it was about WMDs, WMDs, oh, and WMDs. And 9/11 terrorists.

I do feel we owe the Iraqis in general an apology for fucking up their country worse than it already was. Unlike some on this forum, I do not lump all Iraqis into one group. If we were going to take the mantle of "liberators" unasked, at least we could have come up with a decent plan to succeed. That's a big fucking mistake on our part.

And Bush's "Because it has to!" response on the chances of the surge helping us win the war scares the shit out of me. That nearly confirms they have no idea what they are doing, basically trying to wish their way to a positive outcome. What a great plan!
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Old 01-17-07, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
Do you think there would be any terrorism in the US if all 3 branches of government were dissolved and the Army disbanded at the tip of a foreign sword?
According to my libertarian friend, the "Free Market" would take over, and America would become a capitalist utopia.
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Old 01-17-07, 02:42 PM
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Well Ahmed if your leader wasn't such an asshole none of that would have happened. But instead of fighting for yourself and making your life better by getting rid of the asshole (that kills hundreds of thousands of citizens by himself) just go ahead and sit there and be poor burning an American flag.
Ahh because you know what its like to mount a rebellion against an established government and can pass down judgement on people for not doing so...
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Old 01-17-07, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
Ahh because you know what its like to mount a rebellion against an established government and can pass down judgement on people for not doing so...
Uh ya it's called the revolutionary war.
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Old 01-17-07, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopower
Uh ya it's called the revolutionary war.
...which we all proudly fought in!
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Old 01-17-07, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Again, not all peoples respond the same way. Japan, Germany and South Korea have done extremely well under American occupation.
Those occupations were all carried out very differently, and with considerably more man-power. (One might even have called it "adequate" man-power.)
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Old 01-17-07, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
...which we all proudly fought in!
Point? I don't know how to fly a plane either but I've heard that air travel is possible.

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Old 01-17-07, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Nutter
Iraq will not be saved by another 20,000 troops sent in to battle insurgents.
That I agree with.

Originally Posted by Nutter
Iraq needs law and order. That means police, not troops. (I wonder if Canada is still willing to send police to Iraq to train up Iraqis given how Bush responded the first time they offered...)
Now you lost me. The usual method in most conflicts is that when the police get overwhelmed, you send in more heavily armed troops to restore order, and then when things have calmed down you give it back to the police. I'm not sure that I've ever heard it suggested that if the troops can't control the situation, you reduce their forces and send in more police. Right now the police are one of the main targets of the insurgents----just today they suicide car-bombed another police station--and police recruiting centers are another one of their favorite targets. The police can't even protect themselves--and in fact the US and Iraqi soldiers can't even protect the police, let alone civilians. Now I think it's a given that police are generally much more lightly armed than military troops--so when the full might of the US military and the Iraqi army can't contain the military operations of the insurgents, replacing them with more lightly armed Iraqi policemen is going to be a recipe for reclaiming law and order? Are the insurgents going to de-escalate their attacks when faced with a WEAKER opposing force on the ground? I'm not following that logic.

If Canadians could train Iraqi police to accomplish that, then I would certainly concede that Canadian police training methods are pretty darn impressive.

Not that I have any solutions of my own to offer, but I'm not envisioning the "replacing troops with police" strategy proving too successful.
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