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One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IV [Update - Bill has failed]

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One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IV [Update - Bill has failed]

Old 12-05-06, 02:05 PM
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One & Only Illegal Immigration Thread: Part IV [Update - Bill has failed]

I thought I'd revive this discussion.

(I don't know where Part 1 is).
Part Two
Part Dos

<hr>

I want to, very quickly, summarize my views on the entire issue and see what kind of agreement/disagreement I can get on this. In many of these threads, we get caught up in minutiae that don't add to the discussion.

So, here we go:

Our border is not secure enough. This should come as no surprise. I do think it would be worthwhile to make our border more secure, whether it be by fence, ditch, more patrols, etc.

Immigrants are a net benefit to the economy. Note I said immigrants, encompassing legal and illegal. Immigration is a huge net benefit to the overall economy. Even if certain groups (illegal immigrants) are a burden to the state, the overall economic effect is still positive. Even if some groups suffer, the overall benefit is positive.

Which leads to: Our borders should be more open. This is not a contradiction to #1. Saying it is is like saying that an invitation to my house means it's okay for you to crawl through my bedroom window at four in the morning. Our borders should not be more porous or insecure. Simply more open to the rest of the world. Importing talent from abroad is no different than importing Japanese steel because it's better and/or cheaper. By limiting immigration, we are limiting the talent that comes into this country. We have the most productive large economy in the world. To use it to its fullest, we need to continue to allow the best and brightest to come here, and make it easier and quicker than it is now.

Guest-worker programs are useless. We don't want to simply get someone to work and then go back to their country. It's not the way America works, if you look at it historically. People who come here to work should have a clear path to citizenship. Not giving them that path will not involve them in the community and not encourage them to plant roots here.

The first generation of immigrants is never Americanized. There's a limit to how much frustration you should harbor towards any immigrant who doesn't want to / cannot fully integrate into American society. If they have kids, you're almost guaranteed that they are going to be as American as the next person. The melting pot doesn't work as much on the people that get here. They don't melt, so to speak. Their kids do.

I honestly don't yet have a clear answer on what to do with currently illegal immigrants. Certainly, they have broken the law, but for most, that's the only law they've broken. For anyone who is a violent criminal (or a thief, etc), once our borders are secure, I don't see why we need to pay to house them. Deporting them currently is a waste of time.

Taxes are another issue. Believe it or not, some illegals do pay taxes. Americans and illegal immigrants who get paid cash and work under the table don't pay taxes. But for illegals who use a fake SSN (or have set up a taxpayer identification number [TIN]), they do pay taxes just like anyone else who gets a paycheck. What % of the overall population this is, I couldn't tell you nor even make a guess.

I do think there should be some sort of penalty for being here illegally. If there wasn't, it would be unfair to people here legally. What that is, I don't know. It shouldn't be deportation or jailtime. Not only that level of punishment morally wrong, it's economically idiotic.

These are mostly things I've said before, but I wanted to put this on the table as a hopefully logical and clear solution. The politician who most closely holds these viewpoints is <a href="http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/20/1423219&tid=11&tid=219">Michael Badnarik, the one-time Libertarian presidential candidate</a>. Let's just say I barely agree with any of his other viewpoints.

Besides your opinion or analysis of my views, do you know of any politicians (in the mainstream) that seem to share them?
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Old 12-05-06, 02:07 PM
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"Part Dos"

Nice touch.
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Old 12-05-06, 02:55 PM
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I'm bored with this debate. The open-borders people aren't going to change their minds and the people who are for laws to be followed are not going to have their minds changed either.
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Old 12-05-06, 03:03 PM
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Agree with most of your points as written

Originally Posted by The Bus
Our border is not secure enough.
Very true, and I'm amazed that this is not a bigger issue with politicians and the people in general.


Originally Posted by The Bus
Immigrants are a net benefit to the economy.
I agree, and I think most here would. The problem is that most of the time the side that defends illegal immigrants wants to lump all immigrants, illegal and legal, together, to defend their position.


Originally Posted by The Bus
Which leads to: Our borders should be more open.
Again, I agree. However, the solution you propose (making it easier for skilled workers to come in to America) would do very little to stop the flow of illegal immigration. And I'm not trying to pigeonhole here, the illegal immigrant proponents even say that they're here to do jobs that Americans don't want to do.

Originally Posted by The Bus
Guest-worker programs are useless.
Agreed. The government can't even enforce the immigration laws now, who's going to enforce sending guest workers back once their time is up?


Originally Posted by The Bus
The first generation of immigrants is never Americanized.
I'd tend to agree, but I'd like to at least see some effort at "Americanizing." I don't expect total English fluency or anything like that.

Originally Posted by The Bus
Taxes are another issue. Believe it or not, some illegals do pay taxes.
Agreed, but not nearly enough to make up for the amount the government spends on them overall. We will always have citizens who are taking more benefits from the government than they give back in taxes, but to pay for non-citizens who are here illegally?


Originally Posted by The Bus
I do think there should be some sort of penalty for being here illegally.
Definitely. I think this is what rubs the American people the wrong way: that the proponents on TV are expecting to be given total amnesty (or whatever you want to call it) after breaking our laws. You know why? Because we did it before.
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Old 12-05-06, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth
I'm bored with this debate. The open-borders people aren't going to change their minds and the people who are for laws to be followed are not going to have their minds changed either.
For certain the upcoming democratic congress are going to push for amnesty for all the scapping of the plans for the border fence. You're from San Diego where there is already a fence - how's it working for you? From what I've seen it works amazingly well and the illegals are forced to go around it to easier access points like in Arizona and Texas.

I'm not concerned about chaning anyone's mind because I know people who aren't adversely affected by illegal immigration can hear all day long how it effects those of us who are - and they still aren't going to give a crap. I will, however, use this forum to continue to vent. At least i'll be venting where the primary language is English.
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Old 12-05-06, 03:08 PM
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I heard that more citizens are killed by illegal than soldiers in Iraq. Discuss.
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Old 12-05-06, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
Immigrants are a net benefit to the economy.
Just wanted to touch on this one. I agree immigrants are a benefit to the economy. Illegal immigrants are not. I've posted report after report and challenge anyone to prove otherwise and I've never seen anything that shows a net benefit from illegal immigration. And that - is what this thread is about.
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Old 12-05-06, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
I heard that more citizens are killed by illegal than soldiers in Iraq. Discuss.
Yes, I posted that article here but nobody really seems concerned about it. After all my house was probably a little cheaper so who cares?
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Old 12-05-06, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by General Zod
Yes, I posted that article here but nobody really seems concerned about it. After all my house was probably a little cheaper so who cares?

I guess information released by a Republican Senator about Illegal Immigration must be treated like the word of God. After all, it can't be biased , now could it?
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Old 12-06-06, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by I.Flores
I guess information released by a Republican Senator about Illegal Immigration must be treated like the word of God. After all, it can't be biased , now could it?
So the info is bullshit?

I'm not sure how it's biased if it's just stating numbers.

Last edited by Giantrobo; 12-06-06 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 12-06-06, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by I.Flores
I guess information released by a Republican Senator about Illegal Immigration must be treated like the word of God. After all, it can't be biased , now could it?
Should be easy enough to refute then, shouldn't it?
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Old 12-06-06, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
They'll assimilate to the community they're born into. And if that community is overwhelmingly made up of immigrants, they'll take up that culture in turn. The sheer scale of current immigration is unmatched in American history. The nation will change dramatically as a result - in my opinion, for the worst.
No it's not. We've got about the same % of population coming in as we did during the huge migrations of the 1800's and early 1900's (even though it's coming in illegally). The difference is that we have no central control over the flow like we did at Ellis Island. They're also not tucked away in cities like they were then and there is one dominant foreign language being spoken. We are also catering to that language to some extent, at the expense of assimilation. This last aspect is a big problem because there is no incentive for immigrants to learn English. I think it holds them back personally.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by I.Flores
I guess information released by a Republican Senator about Illegal Immigration must be treated like the word of God. After all, it can't be biased , now could it?
My point is even if it turns out to be 100% true (which I don't have any proof that it isn't) that most Americans still wouldn't care. They bitch and complain when a soldier, who is trained for combat, gets killed protecting our interests in Iraq but when someone from mexico sneaks into our backyard and kills innocent people nobody really seems concerned at all.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:07 PM
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When immigrants left everything, they came to be Americans and make their future here. Today, they are just heading north to make money and send it back. The difference in how that affects how they view being here is huge. The first type makes us better, the second weakens us, imo.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:19 PM
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Thank you everyone for replying.

<hr>

My idea is basically to convert the current illegal immigration into legal immigration. The import of labor (workers) remains the same. But now with secure borders, we have people coming through our front door, so to speak. Unlike current illegal immigration, we can have a better handle of the criminal history of the person entering. The border won't turn into a revolving door / turnstile. The other benefit is that since this person now has a taxpaying / worker identity, they are much more likely to work for taxes and much less likely to work under the table.

Businesses should be fined if they don't comply with labor laws. They should also have legal, easy access to cheaper workers.

What bothers me is that legal immigration was easier in our past, and there's no reason for it not to be easy now. For the people worried about gentrification, I never see any complaints about Little Italies or Chinatowns in our cities or Oktoberfest celebrations. These were the completely foreign immigrants of years ago.

There's plenty of places where its easy to get in through the front door, but difficult to go in through the backdoor. That's all I am suggesting.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
When immigrants left everything, they came to be Americans and make their future here. Today, they are just heading north to make money and send it back. The difference in how that affects how they view being here is huge. The first type makes us better, the second weakens us, imo.
Many Italian immigrants moved back and forth to Italy. They also sent money back. I don't think where they send the money is an issue so much.

If we actually had more diversity in our immigrants we'd be a lot better off. Why should a Mexican get special treatment over a Chinese or African person who wants to come and work in the US? We're never going to get a handle on who's coming here until we get control of our border. That's a no brainer. I'm coming to the realization that we do need the cheap labor, but just letting whoever jump across the border is not the way to solve it. We need an Ellis Island on the southern US border.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
When immigrants left everything, they came to be Americans and make their future here. Today, they are just heading north to make money and send it back. The difference in how that affects how they view being here is huge. The first type makes us better, the second weakens us, imo.
To play Devil's Advocate: previous immigrants did not have to worry about being caught and sent back. Previous immigrants could bring the rest of their family pretty easily. Remittances will always be around, but if your family (wife and kids) is in the US and you have no risk of being sent back to your old homeland, would you still send the same amount of money abroad?
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Old 12-06-06, 12:25 PM
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VV- second paragraph, first sentence - I agree.
Bus- First sentence - I agree.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
I believe you're mistaken. The number of foreign born, as well as the children of foreign born, have never been higher in all of U.S. history.
No is hasn't.

(numbers are in throusands)


Source: Wikipedia

We need to get a handle on who's coming in, but the numbers as a percentage of population are no different. Ease of movement within the country has these foreigners in everyone's neighborhoods, not just in the Northeastern cities, so it's noticable to everyone, not just the city folk. We do need to find better ways for them to fit into the American community. Adding more bilingualism is not the way to do it in my opinion.
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Old 12-06-06, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Welcome to the third world.
I'm already here. We had a new Wendy's open near our house and "Wendy" was there. She has her photo on the logo of the store so I was expecting something else but what we got was a short mexican "Wendy" who spoke no English and had a mustache. She did give me a balloon though.
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Old 12-06-06, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
Many Italian immigrants moved back and forth to Italy. They also sent money back. I don't think where they send the money is an issue so much.

If we actually had more diversity in our immigrants we'd be a lot better off. Why should a Mexican get special treatment over a Chinese or African person who wants to come and work in the US?

Yeah I don't get that...well actually I do, cheap labor and proximity. But there seems to be special treatement for Illegals from Latin American countries where other counties are treated like shit by the Gov. I've heard so many stories of LEGAL immigrants who aren't from Latin America getting shafted and sent back with no mercy whatsoever. Yet the Illegals crossing the Southern Border can do no wrong.

We're never going to get a handle on who's coming here until we get control of our border. ...just letting whoever jump across the border is not the way to solve it. We need an Ellis Island on the southern US border.
That's the bottom line that Pro-illegal folks ignore. There's a reason why nations try to let only so many people in at a time over a period of time. If you just open the floodgates then you get overwhelmed.
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Old 12-07-06, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
Many Italian immigrants moved back and forth to Italy. They also sent money back. I don't think where they send the money is an issue so much.
My great grandfather had all his children during his visits back to Italy in between working coal mines in West Virginia...my father and grandmother moved to America years before my Grandfather.

The term WHITE WIDOW in Italy referred to a woman who's husband wasnt around (in America working) but was still alive, so she didnt wear black.
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Old 12-07-06, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
My great grandfather had all his children during his visits back to Italy in between working coal mines in West Virginia...
I'd like to learn more about this. Immigration patterns are of great interest to me, and the way West Virginia was settled is of special interest. Contact me privately if you want.
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Old 12-07-06, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
I'd like to learn more about this. Immigration patterns are of great interest to me, and the way West Virginia was settled is of special interest. Contact me privately if you want.
I remember taking a History course with Prof Jon A Peterson at Queens College about Immigration History. Now do I still have any books from that class? That's another question. If I can find any, I'll give you the titles. Not sure if it will pertain to anything about West VA, but it was an interesting course. I've been to Ellis Island a few times and if you're ever in NYC, you should go. The boat ride alone is fun.
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Old 12-07-06, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wendersfan
I'd like to learn more about this. Immigration patterns are of great interest to me, and the way West Virginia was settled is of special interest. Contact me privately if you want.
there is a PBS special on the settling of the appalachians in the 1740's
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