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One and only illegal immigration thread Part 2

Old 03-30-06, 08:10 AM
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One and only illegal immigration thread Part 2

Original one and only


Hillary vows to block bill criminalizing illegal immigrants


What should be done about illegal immigrants?

'More than 25% of prison population Noncitizens'




We'll start with an article by George Will:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...t_on_immi.html
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Old 03-30-06, 08:13 AM
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Thread title is misleading. The discussion has been centered around ILLEGAL immigration, not simply "immigration" which nobody that i'm aware of has a problem with.

Last edited by General Zod; 03-30-06 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 03-30-06, 08:19 AM
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There are a bunch of people who have problem with our current immigration system.
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Old 03-30-06, 08:53 AM
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Whatever. My point is there were 4 threads focused on illegal immigration and they were closed and a new thread started about just "immigration". A lot of us see a HUGE difference between regular immigration and illegal immigration.
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Old 03-30-06, 09:27 AM
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There's a HUGE connection between the two - our current immigration laws are bad to begin with and administered ineptly. If our current crop of illegal Latinos had a realistic legal alternative they would have taken it, don't you think? If we have somebody from Mexico who wants to come here and work, and there's an employer who has a job for him or her, immigration should be relatively easy. It is not.
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Old 03-30-06, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
Originally Posted by RoyalTea
just so I'm clear, would children of legal immigrants be granted automatic citizenship?
I don't understand your question. Currently, if you sneak across the border from Mexico and pop out a kid, that kid is automatically a US citizen. I would like to change that part of the Constitution to keep the kid a citizen of the country where their parents came from.
from here.

I know that right now, if a pregnant woman illegally enters the United States and gives birth, that child is an American citizen. I don't see a problem with changing that.

but, under your scenario, what if there was someone who entered the United States through all the proper channels and was a 100% legit immigrant. Not a citizen, but they are legally living in the United States and have all the proper paperwork to prove that they are a legal immigrant. If that person gave birth to a child in the United States, would they or would they not be born as an American citizen?

because if the child of a legal immigrant gets to be a citizen and the child of an illegal immigrant does not, I think that might encourage more people to come to this country legally.
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Old 03-30-06, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea
from here.

I know that right now, if a pregnant woman illegally enters the United States and gives birth, that child is an American citizen. I don't see a problem with changing that.

but, under your scenario, what if there was someone who entered the United States through all the proper channels and was a 100% legit immigrant. Not a citizen, but they are legally living in the United States and have all the proper paperwork to prove that they are a legal immigrant. If that person gave birth to a child in the United States, would they or would they not be born as an American citizen?

because if the child of a legal immigrant gets to be a citizen and the child of an illegal immigrant does not, I think that might encourage more people to come to this country legally.
Ok, gotcha.

I'm not passionate one way or another about either scenario you mentioned. I don't think the numbers would make that much of a difference the way the current crop of illgeal's kids are. Make legit immigrants' kids citizens or don't, I don't really care one way or the other.
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Old 03-30-06, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalTea
from here.

I know that right now, if a pregnant woman illegally enters the United States and gives birth, that child is an American citizen. I don't see a problem with changing that.

but, under your scenario, what if there was someone who entered the United States through all the proper channels and was a 100% legit immigrant. Not a citizen, but they are legally living in the United States and have all the proper paperwork to prove that they are a legal immigrant. If that person gave birth to a child in the United States, would they or would they not be born as an American citizen?

because if the child of a legal immigrant gets to be a citizen and the child of an illegal immigrant does not, I think that might encourage more people to come to this country legally.


Exactly. We need to make the benefits of becoming a legal immigrant substantial, almost overwhelming, while at the same time somehow curbing illegal immigration. Perhaps that means allowing far more legal immigrants than we now do? A second part of the equation, at least in my mind, is to somewhat force assimilation into American society. This can be greatly aided by adopting english as the official language of our nation.
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Old 03-30-06, 11:26 AM
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In the case of illegal immigration the new "US Citizen" baby of an illegal is now an "anchor" of sorts. That's the problem I have with it.

There are people within my company that work in our China office. Right before their children are born they come to the US and deliver here. They go home. The child then has dual citizenship and I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is people STAYING illegally, well because their kid IS a US citizen.
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Old 03-30-06, 11:27 AM
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We need to curb the enthusiasm for illegals to enter the country in the first place.

Suggest reading JasonF's post. That's how you do it.
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Old 03-30-06, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
We need to curb the enthusiasm for illegals to enter the country in the first place.

Suggest reading JasonF's post. That's how you do it.


Really?

Now where have I heard before that growth, development, and poverty reduction in the developing world is the only true 'cure'?










adding: JasonF most certainly was correct in that post.

Last edited by Pharoh; 03-30-06 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 03-30-06, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mosquitobite
In the case of illegal immigration the new "US Citizen" baby of an illegal is now an "anchor" of sorts. That's the problem I have with it.

There are people within my company that work in our China office. Right before their children are born they come to the US and deliver here. They go home. The child then has dual citizenship and I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is people STAYING illegally, well because their kid IS a US citizen.
I do have a problem with illegals coming here to give birth. I'm not sure why a person would not have an issue with illegals giving birth and having you pay for their upbringing, but yet be mad about illegals staying here.
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Old 03-30-06, 02:45 PM
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I've been following this thread:

http://livecurrent.latimes.com/opini....html#comments

which is pretty much discussion about an LA times news article. Interesting to read a lot of personal anecdotes from people across LA, both for and against the new legislation. Unfortunately, a lot of the people that are for illegal immigration seem to either not know how to express themselves in English, or have a lack of understanding of the problem... arguments range from "the pilgrims were illegal immigrants" to cries of racism. I'm sure if I could read Spanish, a similar thread from a newspaper like La Opinion would be almost opposite.

I think that's the main problem I have with the arguments for illegal immigrants: they seem to think it's their right to be here, that because they got here somehow they should automatically be given citizenship, when others are paying thousands of dollars and spending years to come here legally. At least for me, it's not a race issue (though I can't speak for everyone). Part of it is an integration issue, part of it is an infrastructure issue, part of it is enforcing our own laws without causing mass revolt, and there are other parts as well.

One opinion I see over and over in that thread: illegal aliens (I'm sorry, "undocumented workers") pay social security taxes that they will never be able to use, and most don't file to get a tax refund that they're "entitled to". I have a hard time believing that their contribution to social security taxes (and property taxes, etc.) makes up for the cost of infrastructure, education, health care, etc. When I see firsthand our schools being overrun, and ERs becoming sinkholes for local hospitals, there's a problem. Now not all of that is from illegal immigration, sure, and I certainly don't advocate turning away someone that needs medical help, or deny any child an education. But that's not even taking into account all of the people who are paid under the table and pay no taxes at all.

I still think the rallys and the school walkouts are just showing the rest of the nation how big a problem there really is down here... and certainly the Mexican flags were a mistake.

I'll say this... a lot of illegal aliens still think Bush is the enemy, and if anyone thinks a "guest workers program" will appease them, they're crazy. They're looking for nothing less than total amnesty for everyone already here, full citizenship for all, and that's something I just can't support. And they're planning next Monday for a total protest, where they don't go into work or shop or anything, to prove how valuable they are to our economy. And again, I wonder if that kind of tactic won't do more harm to their cause than good.
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Old 03-30-06, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by fujishig
And they're planning next Monday for a total protest, where they don't go into work or shop or anything, to prove how valuable they are to our economy. And again, I wonder if that kind of tactic won't do more harm to their cause than good.
Will they not use our hospitals and roads during their day of protest? Let's get a full sample of what it would REALLY be like without them.
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Old 03-30-06, 07:20 PM
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Gee, I wonder if they can also protest by not crossing the border for 2 days and see how quiet and peaceful it can be.
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Old 03-30-06, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fujishig
I've been following this thread:

http://livecurrent.latimes.com/opini....html#comments

which is pretty much discussion about an LA times news article. Interesting to read a lot of personal anecdotes from people across LA, both for and against the new legislation. Unfortunately, a lot of the people that are for illegal immigration seem to either not know how to express themselves in English, or have a lack of understanding of the problem... arguments range from "the pilgrims were illegal immigrants" to cries of racism. I'm sure if I could read Spanish, a similar thread from a newspaper like La Opinion would be almost opposite.

I think that's the main problem I have with the arguments for illegal immigrants: they seem to think it's their right to be here, that because they got here somehow they should automatically be given citizenship, when others are paying thousands of dollars and spending years to come here legally. At least for me, it's not a race issue (though I can't speak for everyone). Part of it is an integration issue, part of it is an infrastructure issue, part of it is enforcing our own laws without causing mass revolt, and there are other parts as well.

One opinion I see over and over in that thread: illegal aliens (I'm sorry, "undocumented workers") pay social security taxes that they will never be able to use, and most don't file to get a tax refund that they're "entitled to". I have a hard time believing that their contribution to social security taxes (and property taxes, etc.) makes up for the cost of infrastructure, education, health care, etc. When I see firsthand our schools being overrun, and ERs becoming sinkholes for local hospitals, there's a problem. Now not all of that is from illegal immigration, sure, and I certainly don't advocate turning away someone that needs medical help, or deny any child an education. But that's not even taking into account all of the people who are paid under the table and pay no taxes at all.

I still think the rallys and the school walkouts are just showing the rest of the nation how big a problem there really is down here... and certainly the Mexican flags were a mistake.

I'll say this... a lot of illegal aliens still think Bush is the enemy, and if anyone thinks a "guest workers program" will appease them, they're crazy. They're looking for nothing less than total amnesty for everyone already here, full citizenship for all, and that's something I just can't support. And they're planning next Monday for a total protest, where they don't go into work or shop or anything, to prove how valuable they are to our economy. And again, I wonder if that kind of tactic won't do more harm to their cause than good.

Dude, I totally agree with you here. Well said.
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Old 03-31-06, 01:28 AM
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The ones that work in the kitchen in resturants get below the minium wage per hour, but they get paid in cash. So don't need to pay taxes. And they can go to county hospital and get free medical help, since they are not citizens they get waited on last.
They can buy a house in any white suburb. And how do they afford it? Easy just rent out the basement and attic. Now neighborhood codes don't allow this you say. I'm one who has seen how for some reason the towns let them get away with it.
And did you know that if a European comes to Chicago with kids and if they want to send their kids to a public school they have to pay. This does not apply to the mexicans, if fact they get new schools built for them on tax payer money. I haven't seen any new schools being built for blacks here in Chicago. They just keep closing them down. So it makes me wonder why Jesse Jackson is so supportive of the Mexicans in their quest to be made U.S. citizens just because they came here crossing the border. I guess Jesse sees the numbers and the power that one can have if the Mexicans can vote Democratic even if it will mean screwing his own race.
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Old 03-31-06, 02:46 AM
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I've been thinking about this problem and I go back to the real issue. It's been an underlying theme and yet one out in the open. That being Blacks don't work. If Blacks, the Americans you keep hearing about who wont' take thes shit jobs like they used too, would just take these Blue Collar gigs on the cheap then the Mexicans/Others wouldn't have any reason to be here. Well, other than the fact that the Mexican Government SUCKS and keeps its people in poverty conditions. Anyway, it's just that simple. Just like El Prezzo de arrogance of Mexico said and El Bush de stupido said, "they(mexicans) do the work americans(blacks) won't do".


I still say we should take over Mexico.....

Last edited by Giantrobo; 03-31-06 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 03-31-06, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
I still say we should take over Mexico.....
I am gone if that ever happens. It would take way too much money to fix it up and the cultures are just not compatible on such a large scale. I wouldn't oppose joining with Canada though.
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Old 03-31-06, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Puzznic
I am gone if that ever happens. It would take way too much money to fix it up and the cultures are just not compatible on such a large scale. I wouldn't oppose joining with Canada though.
I disagree. It wouldn't be that bigga change for the Southwestern states.
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Old 03-31-06, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
I disagree. It wouldn't be that bigga change for the Southwestern states.
That's true but the fact that it wouldn't be that big of a change just shows how bad the problem has gotten. I don't necessarily have a problem with Mexican immigrants but i wan't them to be legal and the numbers of them to be more balanced with the number of immigrants from other countries.
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Old 03-31-06, 07:29 AM
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My problem with anti-illegal immigration laws is that they never really discuss fixing the other side of the coin, legal immigration.

I don't think anyone pro-illlegal immigration wants to have criminals, wastrels, and freeloaders coming into this country. This is certainly happening now although to what extent is debatable.

I still think Badnarik's solution makes the most sense. Extremely tough enforcement of the border coupled with much easier legal immigration.
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Old 03-31-06, 07:35 AM
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I still think Badnarik's solution makes the most sense. Extremely tough enforcement of the border coupled with much easier legal immigration.
And I believe that is the opposite approach we should take.
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Old 03-31-06, 07:50 AM
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I was wondering how long it would take this discussion to turn into an it's black peoples fault/ Jesse Jackson rant. I mean we all know how
Congress is controlled by blacks,and how them blacks are always hiring elegals to save money........I mean how dare those blacks not work for an unlivable wage.

Guess what it's a republican congress, a republican senate, and a republican presidency. I know a lot of people on this board like to blame blacks for all your ills but guess what this one aint blacks fault. And why should it matter what the hell an idiot like Jesse Jackson thinks anyway.
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Old 03-31-06, 08:00 AM
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It's obvious what the problem is: there's this one group of people who have a soveriegn claim to the land, and there's another that's invading them and undermining the society that hard-working citizens have maintained for many years. Bastards. How dare the Mexicans invade California.
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