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Immigrants Benefitting from Jobs Growth?

Old 03-16-06, 07:08 AM
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Immigrants Benefitting from Jobs Growth?

With so much discussion of illegal immigrants taking Americans' jobs, what about those here on H1-B visas also willing to work for less money? Yet another benefit of "globalization"?


Data Shows America’s Job Growth Benefits Immigrants, Outsourcers
By Paul Craig Roberts

On February 20 Forbes.com told its readers with a straight face that "the American job-generation machine rolls on. The economy will create 19 million new payroll jobs in the decade to 2014." Forbes took its information from the 10-year jobs projections from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, US Department of Labor, released last December.

If the job growth of the past half-decade is a guide, the forecast of 19 million new jobs is optimistic, to say the least. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics payroll jobs data, from January 2001-January 2006 the US economy created 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs and 1,039,000 net new government jobs for a total five-year figure of 2,093,000. How does the US Department of Labor get from 2 million jobs in five years to 19 million in ten years?

I cannot answer that question.

However, the jobs record for the past five years tells a clear story. The BLS payroll jobs data contradict the hype from business organizations, such as the US Chamber of Commerce, and from "studies" financed by outsourcing corporations that offshore jobs outsourcing is good for America. Large corporations, which have individually dismissed thousands of their US employees and replaced them with foreigners, claim that jobs outsourcing allows them to save money that can be used to hire more Americans. The corporations and the business organizations are very successful in placing this disinformation in the media. The lie is repeated everywhere and has become a mantra among no-think economists and politicians. However, no sign of these jobs can be found in the payroll jobs data. But there is abundant evidence of the lost American jobs.

Information technology workers and computer software engineers have been especially heavily hit by offshore jobs outsourcing. During the past five years (Jan 01 - Jan 06), the information sector of the US economy lost 645,000 jobs or 17.4% of its work force. Computer systems design and related lost 116,000 jobs or 8.7% of its work force. Clearly, jobs outsourcing is not creating jobs in computer engineering and information technology. Indeed, jobs outsourcing is not even creating jobs in related fields.

For the past five years US job growth was limited to these four areas: education and health services, state and local government, leisure and hospitality, financial services. There was no US job growth outside these four areas of domestic nontradable services.

Oracle, for example, which has been handing out thousands of pink slips, has recently announced two thousand more jobs being moved to India. How is Oracle’s move of US jobs to India creating jobs in the US for waitresses and bartenders, hospital orderlies, state and local government and credit agencies, the only areas of job growth?

Engineering jobs in general are in decline, because the manufacturing sectors that employ engineers are in decline. During the last five years, the US work force lost 1.2 million jobs in the manufacture of machinery, computers, electronics, semiconductors, communication equipment, electrical equipment, motor vehicles and transportation equipment. The BLS payroll job numbers show a total of 70,000 jobs created in all fields of architecture and engineering, including clerical personal, over the past five years. That comes to a mere 14,000 jobs per year (including clerical workers). What is the annual graduating class in engineering and architecture? How is there a shortage of engineers when more graduate than can be employed?

Of course, many new graduates take jobs opened by retirements. We would have to know the retirement rates to get a solid handle on the fate of new graduates. But it cannot be very pleasant, with declining employment in the manufacturing sectors that employ engineers and a minimum of 65,000 H-1B visas annually for foreigners plus an indeterminate number of L-1 visas.

It is not only the Bush regime that bases its policies on lies. Not content with outsourcing Americans’ jobs, corporations want to fill the remaining jobs in America with foreigners on work visas. Business organizations lie about a shortage of engineers, scientists and even nurses. Business organizations have successfully used pubic relations firms and bought-and-paid-for "economic studies" to convince policymakers that American business cannot function without H-1B visas that permit the importation of indentured employees from abroad who are paid less than the going US salaries. The so-called shortage is, in fact, a replacement of American employees with foreign employees, with the soon-to-be-discharged American employee first required to train his replacement.

It is amazing to see free-market economists rush to the defense of H-1B visas. The visas are nothing but a subsidy to US companies at the expense of US citizens.

Keep in mind this subsidy to US corporations for employing foreign workers in place of Americans as we examine the Labor Department’s projections of the ten fastest growing US occupations over the 2004-2014 decade.

All of the occupations with the largest projected employment growth (in terms of the number of jobs) over the next decade are in nontradable domestic services. The top ten sources of the most jobs in "superpower" America are: retail salespersons, registered nurses, postsecondary teachers, customer service representatives, janitors and cleaners, waiters and waitresses, food preparation (includes fast food), home health aides, nursing aides, orderlies and attendants, general and operations managers. Note than none of this projected employment growth will contribute one nickel toward producing goods and services that could be exported to help close the massive US trade deficit. Note, also, that few of these jobs classifications require a college education.

Among the fastest growing occupations (in terms of rate of growth), seven of the ten are in health care and social assistance. The three remaining fields are: network systems and data analysis with 126,000 jobs projected or 12,600 per year; computer software engineering applications with 222,000 jobs projected or 22,200 per year, and computer software engineering systems software with 146,000 jobs projected or 14,600 per year.

Assuming these projections are realized, how many of the computer engineering and network systems jobs will go to Americans? Not many, considering the 65,000 H-1B visas each year (650,000 over the decade) and the loss during the past five years of 761,000 jobs in the information sector and computer systems design and related.

Judging from its ten-year jobs projections, the US Department of Labor does not expect to see any significant high-tech job growth in the US. The knowledge jobs are being outsourced even more rapidly than the manufacturing jobs were. The so-called "new economy" was just another hoax perpetrated on the American people.

If offshore jobs outsourcing is good for US employment, why won’t the US Department of Commerce release the 200-page, $335,000 study of the impact of the offshoring of US high-tech jobs? Republican political appointees reduced the 200-page report to 12 pages of public relations hype and refuse to allow the Technology Administration experts who wrote the report to testify before Congress. Democrats on the House Science Committee are unable to pry the study out of the hands of Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez. Obviously, the facts don’t fit the Bush regime’s globalization hype.

The only thing America has left is finance, and now that is moving abroad. On February 22 CNNMoney.com reported that America’s large financial institutions are moving "large portions of their investment banking operations abroad." [The outsourcing wave hits investment bankers]No longer limited to back-office work, offshoring is now killing American jobs in research and analytic operations, foreign exchange trades and highly complicated credit derivatives contracts. Deal-making responsibility itself may eventually move abroad. Deloitte Touche says that the financial services industry will move 20 percent of its total costs base offshore by the end of 2010. As the costs are lower in India, that will represent more than 20 percent of the business. A job on Wall St is a declining option for bright young persons with high stress tolerance.

The BLS payroll data that we have been examining tracks employment by industry classification. This is not the same thing as occupational classification. For example, companies in almost every industry and area of business employ people in computer-related occupations. A recent study from the Association for Computing Machinery claims: "Despite all the publicity in the United States about jobs being lost to India and China, the size of the IT employment market in the United States today is higher than it was at the height of the dot.com boom. Information technology appears as though it will be a growth area at least for the coming decade."

We can check this claim by turning to the BLS Occupational Employment Statistics. We will look at "computer and mathematical employment" and "architecture and engineering employment."

Computer and mathematical employment includes such fields as "software engineers applications," "software engineers systems software," "computer programmers," "network systems and data communications," and "mathematicians." Has this occupation been a source of job growth?

In November of 2000 this occupation employed 2,932,810 people. In November of 2004 (the latest data available), this occupation employed 2,932,790, or 20 people fewer. Employment in this field has been stagnant for the past four years.

During these four years, there have been employment shifts within the various fields of this occupation. For example, employment of computer programmers declined by 134,630, while employment of software engineers applications rose by 65,080, and employment of software engineers systems software rose by 59,600. (These shifts might merely reflect change in job or occupation title from programmer to software engineer.)

These figures do not tell us whether any gain in software engineering jobs went to Americans. According to Professor Norm Matloff, in 2002 there were 463,000 computer-related H-1B visa holders in the US. Similarly, the 134,630 lost computer programming jobs (if not merely a job title change) may have been outsourced offshore to foreign affiliates.

Architecture and engineering employment includes all the architecture and engineering fields except software engineering. The total employment of architects and engineers in the US declined by 120,700 between November 1999 and November 2004. Employment declined by 189,940 between November 2000 and November 2004, and by 103,390 between November 2001 and November 2004.

There are variations among fields. Between November 2000 and November 2004, for example, US employment of electrical engineers fell by 15,280. Employment of computer hardware engineers rose by 15,990 (possibly these are job title reclassifications). Overall, however, over 100,000 engineering jobs were lost. We do not know how many of the lost jobs were outsourced offshore to foreign affiliates or how many of any increase in computer hardware jobs went to foreign holders of H-1B or L-1 visas.

Clearly, engineering and computer-related employment in the US has not been growing, whether measured by industry or by occupation. Moreover, with a half million or more foreigners in the US on work visas, the overall employment numbers do not represent employment of Americans. Perhaps what corporations and "studies" mean when they claim offshore outsourcing increases US employment is that the contacts companies make abroad allow them to bring in more foreigners on work visas to displace their American employees.

American employees have been abandoned by American corporations and by their representatives in Congress. America remains a land of opportunity--but for foreigners--not for the native born. A country whose work force is concentrated in domestic nontradable services has no need for scientists and engineers and no need for universities. Even the projected jobs in nursing and school teachers can be filled by foreigners on H-1B visas.

In the US the myth has been firmly established that the jobs that the US is outsourcing offshore are being replaced with better jobs. There is no sign of these jobs in the payroll jobs data or in the occupational statistics. Myself and others have pointed out that when a country loses entry level jobs, it has no one to promote to senior level jobs. We have also pointed out that when manufacturing leaves, so does engineering, design, research and development, and innovation itself.

On February 16 the New York Times reported on a new study presented to the National Academies that concludes that outsourcing is climbing the skills ladder. A survey of 200 multinational corporations representing 15 industries in the US and Europe found that 38 percent planned to change substantially the worldwide distribution of their research and development work, sending it to India and China. According to the New York Times, "More companies in the survey said they planned to decrease research and development employment in the United States and Europe than planned to increase employment."

The study and discussion it provoked came to untenable remedies. Many believe that a primary reason for the shift of R&D to India and China is the erosion of scientific prowess in the US due to lack of math and science proficiency of American students and their reluctance to pursue careers in science and engineering. This belief begs the question why students would chase after careers that are being outsourced abroad.

The main author of the study, Georgia Tech professor Marie Thursby, believes that American science and engineering depend on having "an environment that fosters the development of a high-quality work force and productive collaboration between corporations and universities." The Dean of Engineering at the University of California, Berkeley, thinks the answer is to recruit the top people in China and India and bring them to Berkeley. No one seems to understand that research, development, design, and innovation take place in countries where things are made. The loss of manufacturing means ultimately the loss of engineering and science. The newest plants embody the latest technology. If these plants are abroad, that is where the cutting edge resides.

The United States is the first country in history to destroy the prospects and living standards of its labor force. It is amazing to watch freedom-loving libertarians and free-market economists serve as full time apologists for the dismantling of the ladders of upward mobility that made the America of old an opportunity society. America has begun a polarization into rich and poor. The resulting political instability and social strife will be terrible.

COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

Paul Craig Roberts [email him] is the author of Alienation and the Soviet Economy and Meltdown: Inside the Soviet Economy, and is the author with Lawrence M. Stratton of The Tyranny of Good Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution in the Name of Justice. Click here for Peter Brimelow’s Forbes Magazine interview with Roberts about the recent epidemic of prosecutorial misconduct.
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060303_jobs.htm
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Old 03-16-06, 10:51 AM
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Here is the email I sent out to the author:

I read your article with great interest. I cannot help but agree that it is wrong for the administration to withhold the 200-page study on off-shoring US jobs.



However, I was greatly dismayed when I arrived at your comparison using the BLS statistics. You mention that employment in the computers and mathematical field “has been stagnant for the past four years” and that architecture and engineering fields had “over 100,000” jobs lost. You then refer to the BLS data for proof. Your analysis did not go beyond skin-deep and failed to encounter some very important factors.



First, it helps to look at a trend by looking at more than just two years. As such, you should’ve looked at all the years we have data for, not just 2000 and 2004. During that period, there were increases in jobs and decreases in jobs year to year. Computers and mathematics had three increases and two decreases, and engineering had two increases and three decreases. This paints a very different picture than the constant loss you may have suggested.

Second, and more importantly, you’ve failed to look at the mean wage for these jobs. The mean wage for jobs has been rising, even when adjusted for inflation. Taking inflation into account, the average computer/mathematician is now making $5,000 more in 2004 than in 1999. The average architect/engineer is making $6,000 more a year in 2004 than in 1999.

Finally, and most importantly, you have to look over the economic impact of the jobs. Looking at number of jobs or wages by itself is completely irresponsible. You have to take a look at the product of the jobs times their mean wage. For example, in 2004, the 2.9 million computers & mathematics jobs paid about $66,370 a year. That’s a total of $194.6 billion across all jobs. This, adjusted for inflation, is almost a $35 billion increase since 1999 and $10 billion increase since 2000. In engineering we see the same thing. Although the number of jobs has been declining, the wages more than offset that figure. Engineers and architects were paid as a whole, adjusted for inflation, more in 2004 than in any year previous, including 2000 when engineering jobs were at an all-time high.

Clearly, this topic needs well-researched, thorough and published study using many sources of data, not just the BLS. However, if the BLS data is the best source we have, then it looks like America’s job growth benefits Americans, not just immigrants or outsourcers, and a major part of your theory needs revision. I respectfully suggest a more thorough analysis in the future.

<hr>

It looks like this guy is more than just any old internet writer. Too bad his argument is so flawed.
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Old 03-16-06, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
Here is the email I sent out to the author:
Second, and more importantly, you’ve failed to look at the mean wage for these jobs. The mean wage for jobs has been rising, even when adjusted for inflation. Taking inflation into account, the average computer/mathematician is now making $5,000 more in 2004 than in 1999. The average architect/engineer is making $6,000 more a year in 2004 than in 1999.

It looks like this guy is more than just any old internet writer. Too bad his argument is so flawed.
Are you trying to argue that a wage increase of 5K over a 5 year period is GOOD?
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Old 03-16-06, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by tcoursen
Are you trying to argue that a wage increase of 5K over a 5 year period is GOOD?
$5,000 in inflation-adjusted dollars from the dot-com boom to now? I'd say that's good.
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Old 03-16-06, 11:31 AM
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It's safe to say that H1B has taken good jobs out of the hands of American citizens and also lowered the wages of these jobs for everyone. Corporations with pull want H1B as much as possible, it's a lot cheaper than going thru the other channels to import skilled workers. On the other hand, it really is the fleecing of America.
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Old 03-16-06, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
It's safe to say that H1B has taken good jobs out of the hands of American citizens and also lowered the wages of these jobs for everyone. Corporations with pull want H1B as much as possible, it's a lot cheaper than going thru the other channels to import skilled workers. On the other hand, it really is the fleecing of America.
How is H1B taking good jobs out of the hands of American citizens? If American citizens can do the job, they will be hired first. And if the company tries to lower the wage offered to H1B workers, it is breaking the law. Also, why do people always forget that H1B is NOT just for computer programmers/engineers. There are many other skilled professions out there in which there are even higher shortages that benefit by the H1B program. Until Congress provides a separate visa program for non computer-related professions that have shortages, any decrease in H1B visas will hurt America even more.
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Old 03-16-06, 12:13 PM
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If American citizens can do the job, they will be hired first. And if the company tries to lower the wage offered to H1B workers, it is breaking the law.
There is no job surplus in the IT market. There never really was, except maybe in 1998. H1B still keeps chugging along, importing workers who are happy working for a lower wage than someone who was born and raised here. The job pool for tech jobs is extremely oversaturated as it is. Why do we need more foreign workers to fill jobs that don't exist?

If they are using H1B to fill other professions with shortages, they shouldn't. I thought medical has its own visa? I don't think nurses are brought in under H1B. What other professions actually have shortages? Even if there are some, is it in the best interest of the US to simply throw a bandaid on the problem by pumping in more foreign workers? Why not fix the problem from the ground up? Only in extreme and rare cases could I see an H1B program being necessary.
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Old 03-16-06, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by huzefa
How is H1B taking good jobs out of the hands of American citizens? If American citizens can do the job, they will be hired first. And if the company tries to lower the wage offered to H1B workers, it is breaking the law.
There is no shortage of IT workers in this country, especially after the burst of the dot com bubble and all of the outsourcing. At this point we don't need H1B's for IT work.

Second, companies are looking to pay less. The american worker that made X amount of dollars at his old job is going to want to make X amount of dollars at his new job. The H1B guys just coming to this country will be will to work for less than X dollars because it is still way more than they made before. Who do you think they will hire?

As far as breaking the law, good luck trying to prove it. Good luck trying somebody to try and enforce it. Companies can very easily get rid of a high paying position and replace it with pretty much the same responsibilities, just call it something else and pay less. Is that illegal? Very hard to prove. What stops them from getting rid of the "senior programmer" and hire a "application developer" doing the same job for less money? It is very easy to change a job title and lower the salary.
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Old 03-16-06, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
It's safe to say that H1B has taken good jobs out of the hands of American citizens and also lowered the wages of these jobs for everyone.
Carefully (re-)read my earlier post. American workers in these sectors, on average, are making more even after accounting for inflation. This means they are not only keeping up with the costs of living for themselves but are also able to afford more.

Nowhere does this data point to an explosion of productivity and a golden age which will never cease. But overall, it points to the positive much more than the negative. If incoming H1B immigrants are working for a lower wage than their counterparts (as some of you state), then there's a downward pressure on wages. That trend is nowhere to be seen.

If there's other factual data to look at, I would love to see it. I also think it's worthwhile to skim individual subcategories within these job types to see if there's any outliers.

I am not saying that outsourcing is good. I am simply saying that I would like to see evidence (beyond a sub-junior high school analysis or someone's personal view) that points to the negative.
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Old 03-16-06, 02:23 PM
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With all due respect to the fine art of hyperbole:

The United States is the first country in history to destroy the prospects and living standards of its labor force.

Are you kidding me? Beating the bejesus out of the proletariat has been fashionable since Mesopotamia, people. Let's be reasonable here.
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Old 03-16-06, 02:32 PM
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Bus I have no idea what your "Computer & Mathematical" jobs pertains to. That's a pretty broad spectrum. I'd like to see it drilled down to programming & other IT positions.
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Old 03-16-06, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
If they are using H1B to fill other professions with shortages, they shouldn't. I thought medical has its own visa? I don't think nurses are brought in under H1B. What other professions actually have shortages? Even if there are some, is it in the best interest of the US to simply throw a bandaid on the problem by pumping in more foreign workers? Why not fix the problem from the ground up? Only in extreme and rare cases could I see an H1B program being necessary.
H1B is a 'skilled worker' visa; that includes medical and other skilled professions. There is no separate visa for nurses, physical therapists, dentists, physicians. They are all included in them. If there is a shortage and we refuse to allow qualified people to fill them, it is only hurting us and noone else. Fixing the problem from the ground up will require decades of education and retraining. I see this H1B program as being not just necessary but vital to the continued dominance of America in science and technology. What's the point of training thousands of graduate students in our universities, then telling them to fuck off when it comes to getting a job? We need to keep that expertise in the US. However eventually I would like to see the H1B limited to only those technology workers who have graduated from US universities (aka no foreign trained workers).
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Old 03-16-06, 03:32 PM
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In medicine, H1B visa holders frequently work in areas that US citizens won't work in.
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Old 03-16-06, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
Carefully (re-)read my earlier post. American workers in these sectors, on average, are making more even after accounting for inflation. This means they are not only keeping up with the costs of living for themselves but are also able to afford more.

Nowhere does this data point to an explosion of productivity and a golden age which will never cease. But overall, it points to the positive much more than the negative. If incoming H1B immigrants are working for a lower wage than their counterparts (as some of you state), then there's a downward pressure on wages. That trend is nowhere to be seen.

If there's other factual data to look at, I would love to see it. I also think it's worthwhile to skim individual subcategories within these job types to see if there's any outliers.

I am not saying that outsourcing is good. I am simply saying that I would like to see evidence (beyond a sub-junior high school analysis or someone's personal view) that points to the negative.
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Old 03-16-06, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
In medicine, H1B visa holders frequently work in areas that US citizens won't work in.
Like family practice? That's where I see a lot of foreign doctors. Unfortunately when I barely understand a word they are saying it I feel like foreign doctors who work with patients and don't speak english well aren't what our country needs.
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Old 03-16-06, 04:23 PM
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Like family practice? That's where I see a lot of foreign doctors. Unfortunately when I barely understand a word they are saying it I feel like foreign doctors who work with patients and don't speak english well aren't what our country needs.
No, I mean location. Rural or urban areas that other physicians don't want to go to.
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Old 03-16-06, 05:27 PM
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In those situations it's fine, if that's what needs to be done. But I wonder if it would be driving down the potential wage for a US citizen who would take the job for more money like an illegal drives down the potential wage for a McDonald's job for US citizens?

Anyway, I don't have a real problem with H1B and medical (as long as they have a long term solution for whatever reason they are doing the H1B). It's the tech/computer jobs where the real problem lies.

How do they split the various applicants amongst the different skilled jobs? Shouldn't medical field people have more priority than computer people?
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Old 03-16-06, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
Bus I have no idea what your "Computer & Mathematical" jobs pertains to. That's a pretty broad spectrum. I'd like to see it drilled down to programming & other IT positions.
I am simply arguing the fact based on the argument of the article the OP posted. The argument the OP posted is factually incorrect as it makes several mistakes I've already addressed.

What, however, is an "other IT position"? That's also very vague.

FYI, the BLS SOC codes is 15-0000 for Computer and Mathematical Occupations (Major Group)

This major group comprises the following occupations: Computer and Information Scientists, Research ; Computer Programmers ; Computer Software Engineers, Applications ; Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software ; Computer Support Specialists ; Computer Systems Analysts ; Database Administrators ; Network and Computer Systems Administrators ; Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts ; Computer Specialists, All Other ; Actuaries ; Mathematicians ; Operations Research Analysts ; Statisticians ; Mathematical Technicians ; Mathematical Science Occupations, All Other.

As you may know, if you're in the IT workforce, is that titles very often don't mean too much. While "Database Administrator" and "Mathematician" are very different, others are a bit more similar.

I would love to pore through all the data, but I simply don't have the time. I did however, go through two:

15-1021 Computer Programmers

Convert project specifications and statements of problems and procedures to detailed logical flow charts for coding into computer language. Develop and write computer programs to store, locate, and retrieve specific documents, data, and information. May program web sites.

15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts

Analyze science, engineering, business, and all other data processing problems for application to electronic data processing systems. Analyze user requirements, procedures, and problems to automate or improve existing systems and review computer system capabilities, workflow, and scheduling limitations. May analyze or recommend commercially available software. Exclude persons working primarily as "Engineers" (17-2011 through 17-2199), "Mathematicians" (15-2021), or "Scientists" (19-1011 through 19-3099). May supervise computer programmers.



What we see here is that computer programmers have gotten the short end of the stick. Their wages have not been increasing and there is constantly less of them. Now, we don't know if they are being promoted, they are dying, retiring with stock options... Nothing. We simply don't know. So take this with a Philly-pretzel-sized grain of salt.

However, if we look at a "Computer Systems Analyst" who sounds like someone who perhaps oversees programmers we see that there are now 67,000 more of them, and each of them makes more now than they did ever before (1999-2003).

I'm not going to argue that computer programmers are being outsourced and are making less. They are.

However, the industry they work in is, in America, employing a more focused group of people at higher salaries providing a net benefit -- see the facts above.

If this should be refuted, I would hope it is done by more than just a glib response, rather with hard facts and data.

Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
It's the tech/computer jobs where the real problem lies.

$35 billion more to American workers since 1999 (adjusted for inflation). How is that a "real" problem?

Last edited by The Bus; 03-16-06 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-16-06, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
Like family practice? That's where I see a lot of foreign doctors. Unfortunately when I barely understand a word they are saying it I feel like foreign doctors who work with patients and don't speak english well aren't what our country needs.
Very true. Even though all foreign physicians are required to pass the TOEFL before they can be certified in the US, there are still too many who have no concept of doctor-patient relationships. Nonetheless, the alternative is to have no doctor, and that is unacceptable.
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Old 03-16-06, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
What we see here is that computer programmers have gotten the short end of the stick. Their wages have not been increasing and there is constantly less of them. Now, we don't know if they are being promoted, they are dying, retiring with stock options... Nothing. We simply don't know. So take this with a Philly-pretzel-sized grain of salt.

However, if we look at a "Computer Systems Analyst" who sounds like someone who perhaps oversees programmers we see that there are now 67,000 more of them, and each of them makes more now than they did ever before (1999-2003).

I'm not going to argue that computer programmers are being outsourced and are making less. They are.

However, the industry they work in is, in America, employing a more focused group of people at higher salaries providing a net benefit -- see the facts above.

If this should be refuted, I would hope it is done by more than just a glib response, rather with hard facts and data.
Well here is the problem with this situation. What happens down the road? If you are outsourcing the lower level positions where does you next generation of middle and upper level employees come from?

The situation may not be so bad right now, but it is trending the wrong way, and I think that was part of the point of the original article.
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Old 03-16-06, 08:45 PM
  #22  
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Bus, where are you pulling your numbers from? Could you go back to 1995 and compare against 2005 adjusted against inflation?
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Old 04-03-06, 09:26 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by tcoursen
If you are outsourcing the lower level positions where does you next generation of middle and upper level employees come from?
Name one industry where it is crucial that workers always need to be hired and promoted from within and workers are not available from any outside source.

A valid example would be a police department.

<hr>

AFAIK, BLS data goes back to '99 that I could see.
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