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Eurabia/Dhimmitude---Opinions?

Old 03-01-06, 05:09 PM
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Eurabia/Dhimmitude---Opinions?

I haven't actually read Bat Ye'or's book, but I have read a number of reviews and quotes from it, and I have to say it seems quite logical and well-supported. Particularly the conclusion that the very idea of the state of Israel is intolerable to the Islamic cultural mindset:

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton032605.html


"One of Ye'or's most valuable services is to show that the war against the Islamists and terrorism cannot be separated from the fate of Israel, that indeed Israel has been fighting for sixty years a war that the United States has just recently been forced to enter by 9/11. Israel's existence is the most painful and humiliating sign of the West's ascendancy over Islam, even more so than were the short-lived Crusader kingdoms or the European colonial presence. For Israel not only exists in lands the Arabs consider rightfully conquered from a people they can tolerate only as subservient dhimmi, but it flourishes in ways that expose the cultural and political inadequacies of the oil-rich Arab countries. The destruction of Israel, then, would mark a major step in reasserting simultaneously the rightful superiority of Arab Islamic civilization and the decadence of a West that abandoned its cultural kin because of fear, moral exhaustion, disbelief in its own cultural ideals, economic interests, and its own peculiar evil of anti-Semitism. The defeat of Israel would then become a model for the subsequent recovery of the Islamic superiority lost over the last three centuries."

For me, I tend to find this argument much more believable than the idea that the Islamic world's gripe with Israel is solely its treatment of the Palestinians---particularly in light of the treatment and second-class status most of the Arab countries bestow upon the Palestinian immigrants in their own countries.

And this:

"Finally, "Palestinianism" becomes the vehicle for pursuing the struggle with the West, one that exploits hatred of Jews under the guise of anti-Zionism, thus giving cover to a traditional anti-Semitism driven underground by the Holocaust. Palestinianism also expresses various cultural pathologies of Western societies, such as Western self-loathing, the idealization of the non-Western "other," the glamour of guerilla resistance, refugee pathos, and a sentimentalized post-colonial guilt. The ultimate goal, however, is not the establishment of a Palestinian state but the prosecution of jihad against the West: "The Arab-Israeli conflict, deliberately blown out of all proportion by the Euro-Arab associative diplomacy, is just one arena of an incessant global jihad that targets the entire West. PLO practices of airplane piracy since 1968, random killings, hostage takings, and Islamikaze bombings have been adopted worldwide as effective jihadist tactics against Western and other civilians, including Muslims."

"For thirty years, these other means of waging jihad have been remarkably successful in effecting "Europe's evolution from a Judeo-Christian civilization, with important post-Enlightenment secular elements, into a post-Judeo-Christian civilization that is subservient to the ideology of jihad and the Islamic powers that propagate it," with the result that Europe is turning into Eurabia—a "civilization of dhimmitude," content to sacrifice Israel today, and its own cultural identity in the future, for temporary peace of mind and economic benefits.


I tend to think her arguments are pretty solid. Any other opinions?

And here's a nice little piece on "The Ents of Europe" (yes, as in LOTR :

http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson121004.html
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Old 03-01-06, 05:47 PM
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It makes a lot of sense esp. in light of a franchise(I think Burger King) in the UK deciding not to sell one type of ice-cream because the swirl reminds a moslem of the script spelling of Mohammed.
Anyways, as far as Europe goes, this is going to be a moot question in the near future as non-moslems are going to be in the minority and 40% of the moslems living in the UK now want Islamic Law.

Last edited by bhk; 03-01-06 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 03-01-06, 05:48 PM
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I don't attribute sinister motives to Bush, but I've just never been convinced that the Iraq invasion was our best use of blood, money and resources in fighting the Islamists. I tend to agree with that paragraph at the end of the first link I posted:

"Next, the President's policy of facilitating democratic regimes and political freedom in the Middle East short-changes the power of cultural and religious ideals in determining behavior. Democracy is obviously important if the requisite cultural transformations can take place: respect for human rights irrespective of sex, sect, or race; the rule of law; subordination of religion to government; civilian control of the military; an independent and transparent judiciary—all these are necessary for democracy to create political freedom rather than simply ratifying a new tyranny, as the Algerian democratic elections did in 1993. We need to acknowledge the power of spiritual ideals, such as jihad, in driving the Islamists, and not just explain these as the consequences of the lack of elections."
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Old 03-01-06, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bhk
It makes a lot of sense esp. in light of a franchise(I think Burger King) in the UK deciding not to sell one type of ice-cream because the swirl reminds a moslem of the script spelling of Mohammed.


Somebody needs to snopes that. It sounds too good to be true. If it is true, it makes people who claim that the old Proctor and Gamble logo has Satanic symbols in it seems sane.
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Old 03-01-06, 06:20 PM
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http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1951292005
Burger King recalls 'sacrilegious' desserts
THE fast-food chain, Burger King, is withdrawing its ice-cream cones after the lid of the dessert offended a Muslim.

The man claimed the design resembled the Arabic inscription for Allah, and branded it sacrilegious, threatening a "jihad"....

It was "Allah" and not "Mohammed" as I had said in my first post.
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Old 03-01-06, 06:53 PM
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"How can you say it is a spinning swirl? If you spin it one way to the right you are offending Muslims."

So BK spends thousands to recall and correct the issue, the "Muslim Counsil spokesman" says "We commend the sensitive and prompt action that Burger King has taken" and the guy that was offended? Oh, he's not impressed any way. Nice.

That's the last time I put my faith in a refreshing concession.
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Old 03-01-06, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
I agree with a lot of that analysis. That's why I believe that this is not a struggle against individuals or organizations, but one that requires the transformation of a culture. Opposers to the Iraq invasion don't seem to realize that though.
Hold your horses there! Some opposers to the Iraq invasion realize this just fine and simply think that coming into a country with guns ablazing is not the right way to transform Islamic culture into something more conducive to peaceful coexistence.
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Old 03-01-06, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Then what is the right way?
Hugs and smiles all around?

Seriously though, do you really expect to change the way a person thinks by invading his country?

The only possible way that this can work is if there are strong ties binding both countries, politically, economically and culturally. Start a Peace Corps program in Iraq, invite their students to study at US universities, etc.

p.s.: That's probably all a pipedream if Zarqawi and the Takfiris aren't killed first.
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Old 03-01-06, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by huzefa
Seriously though, do you really expect to change the way a person thinks by invading his country?
Remember, we didn't "invade" Iraq. We "liberated" it.

And I don't think we went in to "change the way a person thinks."
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Old 03-02-06, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by huzefa
Hugs and smiles all around?

Seriously though, do you really expect to change the way a person thinks by invading his country?

The only possible way that this can work is if there are strong ties binding both countries, politically, economically and culturally. Start a Peace Corps program in Iraq, invite their students to study at US universities, etc.

p.s.: That's probably all a pipedream if Zarqawi and the Takfiris aren't killed first.


Why in the world would you simply assume that the way the Iraqi people as whole think needed to be changed? The possession of freedoms, liberties, and the potential for personal advancement and enrichment, economically and socially, are somehow foreign to Iraqis? Perhaps America is simply allowing them to think they way they always have, or at least have always desired to?
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Old 03-02-06, 07:13 AM
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Yeah! Invasion & capitalism will change a culture every time.

The supporters of the invasion of Iraq assume that western-style democracies will prevail in the Middle East. I believe that is a wishful assumption, at best.

If democracy does occur, we most probably won't like it. In addition, IMO, the leaders will simply use a democratic process to bring about what they ultimately desire - an Islamic, sectarian state with precious little democracy of any kind.
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Old 03-02-06, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Democracy won't compel those transformations. Capitalism will. That's the big mistake of the Bush administration.

Here is our only small disagreement. The two are more intricately connected in my view. The wealth and prosperity resulting from free-market growth and development comes far more easily and consistently in liberal government systems. The gains can only realistically be sustained, and more importantly experienced by the majority of the people in a system which practices some type of democracy and implements and utilises many of its institutions.

Granted, there is no doubt that it is easier for democracy to follow in a developed nation, but sometimes that is not a possibility.
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Old 03-02-06, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Yeah! Invasion & capitalism will change a culture every time.
No, they may not always. However, they are the only weapons truly available for the task. The only question is whether the change is needed.


Or:




Originally Posted by classicman2
The supporters of the invasion of Iraq assume that western-style democracies will prevail in the Middle East. I believe that is a wishful assumption, at best.

If democracy does occur, we most probably won't like it. In addition, IMO, the leaders will simply use a democratic process to bring about what they ultimately desire - an Islamic, sectarian state with precious little democracy of any kind.

No, 'supporters' only assume that according to you. Having said that, there should be little doubt that the institutions of democracy will benefit the peoples of Iraq and the Middle East. The adoption of basic rights and liberties is not a pipe dream.

Personally, I am not going to make a judgement on the democratic process in Iraq after such a short time, thought the speed in which the transformation has been taking place is far quicker than I ever expected. Nor will I fail to give the people of Iraq and the Middle East credit for their abilities and capabilities, or for their desire for some level of self-determination. Sorry.
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Old 03-02-06, 08:39 AM
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You are a visionary Pharoh, but I don't believe we have enough blood and treasure in this country to make your vision come true. We need to look at the issue realistically.
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Old 03-02-06, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
You are a visionary Pharoh, but I don't believe we have enough blood and treasure in this country to make your vision come true. We need to look at the issue realistically.
In addition - it's not our business to 'bring democracy to the Middle East.'
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Old 03-02-06, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
In addition - it's not our business to 'bring democracy to the Middle East.'
I don't know about that. I think spreading Democracy is something we should strive for, I just question some of the methods we are using to do that.
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Old 03-02-06, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
You are a visionary Pharoh, but I don't believe we have enough blood and treasure in this country to make your vision come true. We need to look at the issue realistically.

I take that as a compliment and appreciate it, however it is not very accurate. I am a hard-power pragmatist, one who engages in the brutal reality of the world every day in my profession. As but one example, I offer up my longstated primary reason for support of the endeavour in Iraq. The action was necessary first and foremost because of our increasingly untenable position in Saudi Arabia, our requirement to have a strongpoint in close proximity to the area, and our need to be able to exert pressure, military, social, and economic, on the regimes of Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

Further, I do not believe that the cost will need to be anywhere near as high as you feel it will. No, it will not be easy, or come without a price, but not impossible or unrealistic. Ultimately, perhaps it comes down to ones belief in two things: the power of economic liberties and opportunities to enrich and empower the lives of the peoples of the world, and in the people of the Middle East themselves. I weep for the world where those are not realistic.
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Old 03-02-06, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Pharoh
I take that as a compliment and appreciate it, however it is not very accurate. I am a hard-power pragmatist, one who engages in the brutal reality of the world every day in my profession. As but one example, I offer up my longstated primary reason for support of the endeavour in Iraq. The action was necessary first and foremost because of our increasingly untenable position in Saudi Arabia, our requirement to have a strongpoint in close proximity to the area, and our need to be able to exert pressure, military, social, and economic, on the regimes of Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
It was a complement, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.

I do question the motivation about getting troops out of Saudia Arabia though. Was it an issue that they would be under threat from Islamic radicals? If that's the case, I'd like to run a summary of the number of Islamic attacks against the troops in Saudi Arabia before the Iraq invasion and the number of attacks against US troops post Iraq invasion. I think the numbers would be strikingly different. If that's the angle you're coming from, I hardly see how we've solved the problem, in fact it's even worse.

If it's a question of moving the troops out of SA and still having Saddam in power, why couldn't troops be stationed in Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar, Greece, etc? Given the new mobility we're expecting from our forces, I don't see that as unrealistic.
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Old 03-02-06, 09:32 AM
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One of these days you'll tell me what you do Pharoh, even if right after you have to kill me.
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Old 03-02-06, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
One of these days you'll tell me what you do Pharoh, even if right after you have to kill me.
I consider myself a pragmatist. I don't believe Pharoh is being pragmatic with his views on bringing democracy to places that has no history of democratic institutions.
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Old 03-02-06, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
I consider myself a pragmatist. I don't believe Pharoh is being pragmatic with his views on bringing democracy to places that has no history of democratic institutions.
That's a good point, but there's more to it than that. The problem with democracy in the ME is that the most galvanized political parties are all hardcore Islamists. I don't see how that is going to make for a more stable ME. As you often say, we're not going to like the kind of democracy that is put in place by the political parties that the ME currently has.
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Old 03-02-06, 10:09 AM
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That's the point I've tried to make for a long time.

Even if democracy was brought to the area, I don't believe it would bring stability to the area.

I think they might have a tendency to 'spread their democracy' to other areas.
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Old 03-02-06, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
That's a good point, but there's more to it than that. The problem with democracy in the ME is that the most galvanized political parties are all hardcore Islamists. I don't see how that is going to make for a more stable ME. As you often say, we're not going to like the kind of democracy that is put in place by the political parties that the ME currently has.
Hamas (Palestine), Hezbollah (Lebanon), Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt), have all made significant political gains in recent elections. Not to mention the nutcases that are now ruling Iran and the mess in Iraq. Mubarak even postponed scheduled municipal elections in Egypt for fear that Muslim Brotherhood would make even more gains.
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Old 03-02-06, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by VinVega
That's a good point, but there's more to it than that. The problem with democracy in the ME is that the most galvanized political parties are all hardcore Islamists.
Even in the west(for council elections etc..) hardcore Islamists routinely win 30-40% of the islamic vote.
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Old 03-02-06, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bhk
Even in the west(for council elections etc..) hardcore Islamists routinely win 30-40% of the islamic vote.
bhk, what's your take on the democracy issue in the ME. Do you think it will help? I'm curious.
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