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Why Holocaust Denial?

Old 12-04-05, 07:38 PM
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Why Holocaust Denial?

I do not understand the logic or reasoning behind Holocaust denial and historical revisionism that depicts the vile Nazi regime in a somewhat more sympathetic light.

And I do not know what drives pro-Nazi nuts such as David Irving and other "historians" like him. Why would they so gravely risk their public image and their careers in their futile quest for the "truth" that never existed. Why do bright people such as Mr Irving, end up so driven by such a narrow minded and silly topic such as Holocaust denial?
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Old 12-04-05, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cancer Man
I do not understand the logic or reasoning behind Holocaust denial and historical revisionism that depicts the vile Nazi regime in a somewhat more sympathetic light.
The basic premise is that the Nazis were decent folk who got scapegoated by the evil Jews in order to create enough popular sympathy for the Jews to allow the creation of a Zionist homeland (Israel). Needless to say, Holocause Denial is a load of bullshit.
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Old 12-04-05, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by X
I imagine it's to minimize and discount what really happened because what really happened can't be coped with or explained away.

Isn't that why some people say Bush didn't really win the 2000 election but rather a few people on the Supreme Court gave the election to him?
So you're saying Bush=Nazi.

Oh wait...you're saying Bush=Nazi. Nevermind. Carry on.
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Old 12-04-05, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Cancer Man
I do not understand the logic or reasoning behind Holocaust denial and historical revisionism that depicts the vile Nazi regime in a somewhat more sympathetic light.

And I do not know what drives pro-Nazi nuts such as David Irving and other "historians" like him. Why would they so gravely risk their public image and their careers in their futile quest for the "truth" that never existed. Why do bright people such as Mr Irving, end up so driven by such a narrow minded and silly topic such as Holocaust denial?
The way I look at it is that history is a point of view of the truth. But truth isn't always determined by historical facts. Just so we're clear - I do believe the historical accounts about the Holocaust. But I do want to hear other points of view, because I believe that in order to figure out how something like this could've happened, it's important to look at everything. It's not enough to simply say they were evil. That it couldn't happened to anyone else. I believe that what happened in Nazi Germany is part of human nature, which given the right circumstances, can manifest itself in anyone, at anyplace, at anytime.

I have not read David Irving's writings, so I cannot comment on what I have not read. I know what he's been accused of - being a revisionist. But I have not read what he's written and so I cannot form an opinion with regards to what degree that label of him, is true.

There is this quote by philospher Immanuel Kant: "Our age is, in especial degree, the age of criticism, and to criticism, everything must submit. Religion through its sanctity ... may seek to exempt [itself] from it. But [it] awaken[s] just suspicion, and cannot claim the sincere respect which reason accords only to that which has been able to sustain the test of free and open examination." He says it in reference to religion, but it applies also in the discovery of truth. Note: I think I remember this quote from a post by mosquitobite? Anyhow, it rings true to me and I felt it was relevant here.

Last edited by hahn; 12-04-05 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 12-04-05, 08:22 PM
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No serious scholar denies the existence of the holocaust.

There are, or were, serious scholars who questioned the 6-7 million figure.
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Old 12-04-05, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
Needless to say, Holocause Denial is a load of bullshit.
Could this be the one magical topic on which we all agree?

Holocaust denial is plain old anti-semitism in new clothes. They wore out the protocols of the elders of zion, so they move on to this. Sadly, though, people are still taking it seriously.
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Old 12-04-05, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hahn
I do believe the historical accounts about the Holocaust. But I do want to hear other points of view, because I believe that in order to figure out how something like this could've happened, it's important to look at everything. It's not enough to simply say they were evil. That it couldn't happened to anyone else. I believe that what happened in Nazi Germany is part of human nature, which given the right circumstances, can manifest itself in anyone, at anyplace, at anytime.
It has happened elsewhere, just never is such an advanced society with such an enlightened history...and in most places the victems were general 'undesirables'

To me, the strange thing about people who try to explain away terrorism with theories about western civilization 'embarrasing' arabs, and economic hardships, is that they will ignore all those issues with the holocost.(As well they should)
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Old 12-05-05, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
It has happened elsewhere, just never is such an advanced society with such an enlightened history...and in most places the victems were general 'undesirables'
What examples did you have in mind?

To me, the strange thing about people who try to explain away terrorism with theories about western civilization 'embarrasing' arabs, and economic hardships, is that they will ignore all those issues with the holocost.(As well they should)
I tried to follow that but I couldn't. Not sure what you're getting at.
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Old 12-05-05, 04:38 AM
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Holocaust Denial is is simply trying to accomplish what Hitler did to a larger degree in his days--which was--convincing a large group of idiots that there was a Jew Conspiracy.

Denial is the first phase of hatred. If you deny something, you can hate it more. If you deny something, you can blame it for your woes.
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Old 12-05-05, 05:24 AM
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You know which group of people would like to deny the holocaust ever happened? Palestinians/Arabs who dont want the Jews to have a homeland. About the closest Palestinians come to acknowleding the holocaust is that they say it "may" have happened but it was definitely not as bad (in terms of deaths) as the Jews say it was. And these Palestinian teach this in their schools (Ive seen documentaries) that the Holocaust is Jewish propoganda. Well in that case I guess all these Arabs dying due to Westerners and Jews is only Arabic/Muslim propoganda as well!

The Holocaust happened, the Jews suffered greatly (and continue to do so) and NO Arabic/Muslim rubbish will ever change that! As for the pro-Nazis, these freaks aren't even worth a mention!!!
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Old 12-05-05, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
No serious scholar denies the existence of the holocaust.

There are, or were, serious scholars who questioned the 6-7 million figure.
IIRC, there were more than 3 million Jews in Poland alone when the war started and very few at the end. 6 million in all of Europe hardly seems a stretch.
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Old 12-05-05, 08:21 AM
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There is overwhelming historical evidence that the SS and it's leaders conducted a concentrated pan-European campaign that was dedicated to eliminating 11 million European Jews; 3 million Jews alone were trapped in occupied Poland.

So it's easy to assume that at least 4 million Jews died, never mind the millions more people murdered, such as the gypsies, disabled people and Soviet POWs. SS leaders officially stated that they intended to murder 11 million Jews and an additional 30 million Slavic people, in their genocidal conquest of Eastern Europe and Russia. So it's not hard to believe that the Nazis could have executed 12 million innocent Jews, gypsies and other unfortunates in the space of four or five terrible short years.

And despite this, morons such as Mr. Irving still go out of their way to demonstrate that the Nazi Holocaust was at best an overexageration and at worst the most elaborate hoax of the 20th century. They even go as far to say that the gas chambers were built by the Soviets after they had liberated the Nazi death camps! They deny the Holocaust, despite the overwhelming historical evidence of what the Nazis said and did, despite the survivors, the countless eyewitnesses, the solid evidence of SS documents and of course the slave camps themselves.

Last edited by Cancer Man; 12-05-05 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 12-05-05, 08:33 AM
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The 6-7 million figure is a conservative estimate.

DVD Polizei summed up my thoughts on the subject in a sufficient manner.
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Old 12-05-05, 08:42 AM
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Well, there are/were a number of scholars on the holocaust who do not agree with you - including at least one from the University of Texas at Austin.
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Old 12-05-05, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Well, there are/were a number of scholars on the holocaust who do not agree with you - including at least one from the University of Texas at Austin.
What's their estimate? In particular, what is the estimate from the one at the University of Texas?

I'm not totally wedded to the 6 million figure but it seems quite plausible to me.

Last edited by movielib; 12-05-05 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 12-05-05, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Holocaust Denial is is simply trying to accomplish what Hitler did to a larger degree in his days--which was--convincing a large group of idiots that there was a Jew Conspiracy.

Denial is the first phase of hatred. If you deny something, you can hate it more. If you deny something, you can blame it for your woes.
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Old 12-05-05, 10:14 AM
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I don't remember what the UT professor estimated. He started with the 'railway car' availability and added some things to that. I can't remember his name. He had tenure and wasn't fired, but the wrath came down on him.

Remember a few years ago when a woman historian was going to work for Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich? She didn't get the job, because of all of the negative publicity she received when she also questioned the accepted figure.
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Old 12-05-05, 10:54 AM
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that's crazy. to give that much thought as to how many Jews were put on a train and other things and transported to a death camp or killed its too much work. I'm sure many were executed on the spot or made to walk to a forrest and executed on a ditch, killed by a neighbor in their own house, etc. When you consider that the first country attacked and taken over had at least 3 million Jews, it seems quite possible that atleast 6 million died. But if I understand correctly, Poland had one of the largest Jewish populations in the area. no? even with that, to get another 50% from all the other countries seems like almost a certainty not even accounting for the ones that might have been killed as "Jews" but really weren't.

Bellum, no disrespect but by you saying that "Well in that case I guess all these Arabs dying due to Westerners and Jews is only Arabic/Muslim propoganda as well!" is doing exactly what you claim the Palestanians/arabs/muslim are doing. Just because one is denying that it didn't happen to the other doesn't mean that is not happening to them.

Last edited by BuddhaWake; 12-05-05 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 12-05-05, 10:59 AM
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I don't believe either he or I said that every Jew was put on a train; but, there is little doubt that was the prinicpal means of 'transportation.'
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Old 12-05-05, 11:07 AM
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Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I was just saying that coming up with some sort of formula regarding the availability of trains, how many people could get stuffed there, distance of travel, personel needed, fuel allocation etc, or whatever to come up with a number is crazy. that's what i meant. I'll refrase for clarification.
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Old 12-05-05, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BuddhaWake
Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I was just saying that coming up with some sort of formula regarding the availability of trains, how many people could get stuffed there, distance of travel, personel needed, fuel allocation etc, or whatever to come up with a number is crazy. that's what i meant. I'll refrase for clarification.
It seems like a reasonable piece of the equation to me.

People tend to discount or deny the Holocaust to keep them from seeing themselves, and those who agree with their position, as monsters.
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Old 12-05-05, 12:18 PM
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For those who think 6M is a stretch:

A present day, regular German businessman showing some of his real estate on national TV

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Old 12-05-05, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by darkessenz
The destruction of another race/city/culture has been, and will continue to be, standard protocol for a large number of nations. Hitler did what many tribes and city-states used to do when conquering another region, he just had the technology available to do it enmasse.
Conquerors is another catagory altogether...im talking internal genocide, and its usually in more backwards societies (Russia, China)
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Old 12-07-05, 11:39 AM
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Posted by Tommy Ceez: and its usually in more backwards societies (Russia, China)
China at least, was never a backward society and most Nazi genocide was more external than internal, although internal genocide took the form of the euthenasia of disabled German citizens and of course the oppression of German Jews.
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Old 12-07-05, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cancer Man
China at least, was never a backward society and most Nazi genocide was more external than internal, although internal genocide took the form of the euthenasia of disabled German citizens and of course the oppression of German Jews.
I dunno, they were filled with peasent farmers...thats not backwards?
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