Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Senator Lieberman Sees Progress in the War

Old 11-30-05, 06:29 AM
  #1  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Senator Lieberman Sees Progress in the War

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051129...ieberman_iraq_2


WASHINGTON - Sen. Joe Lieberman, fresh from a two-day visit to Iraq over the Thanksgiving holiday, said Monday he was hopeful U.S. forces could begin a "significant" withdrawal by the end of next year or in 2007.

"The country is now in reach of going from Saddam Hussein to self-government and, I'd add, self-protection," the Connecticut Democrat said in a conference call with reporters. "That would be a remarkable transformation ... I saw real progress there."

Lieberman, one of the most hawkish Democrats in the Senate, said the effectiveness of Iraqi security forces and the ability of a new Iraqi government to rule after the Dec. 15 elections are critical factors in determining when U.S. troops could come home. But if all goes well, he forsees a pullout beginning a year from now.

"If Iraqi forces continue to gain the confidence the American military sees there now ... We will be able to draw down our forces," he said.

Lieberman has visited Iraq four times in 17 months. He said there are signs life is returning to normal, including a profusion of cell phones and satellite TV dishes on rooftops.

"About two-thirds of the country is in really pretty good shape," he said, noting most attacks are in the so-called "Sunni Triangle" region. "Overall, I came back encouraged."

Lieberman said he hopes President Bush's speech Tuesday night will give a clearer picture to the American public of the progress being made in the war.

"It's time for some details," said Lieberman. "He's gotta describe some of the progress that I saw there. It's gotta be realistic."

U.S. military officials told him they hope that by next year, two-thirds of Iraq's military will be able to carry the fight to insurgents with limited logistical support from U.S. forces. Lieberman said U.S. commanders had learned from their early mistakes and were successfully pursuing a "clear-hold-build" strategy against rebel forces.

He cautioned, however, that "prematurely" pulling out U.S. forces would jeopardize the progress made thus far.

The senator said he ate three Thanksgiving meals at different bases visiting with troops, including about 50 soldiers from Connecticut.

"They look good, they're proud of what they're doing and of course they're anxious to get home, but they know they have a job to do," said Lieberman.

Lieberman wanted to personally report back to the families of the troops, but he said most of them had already sent back e-mails or telephoned home news of the meeting to friends and family in Connecticut.

The recent partisan battle in Congress over Iraq, including Pennsylvania Rep. Jack Murtha's call for an immediate troop pullout, has not significantly hurt troop morale, Lieberman added.

"As one general said, they're devoted to each other and the cause," Lieberman said.

The senator said some U.S. commanders expressed concern that some soldiers who were on their second or third deployments were suffering from stress.
______________________

This same thread was closed because of a somewhat inflammatory thread titlle.

However, I believe this thread has merit and should be discussed.

If for no other reason - because of the timing. The President is scheduled to make an important address on the subject of Iraq today. http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...177120,00.html

I really don't agree with the characterization in the thread which used the term 'hawkish' to descirbe Joe Lieberman. I don't consider Lieberman to be a hawk.

Last edited by classicman2; 11-30-05 at 07:05 AM.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 07:07 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,813
He was there for two days. I hope he's right, but I'm afraid it's just politics. It's worth observing that Kurdish areas, Sunni areas and unpopulated areas may be peaceful, but the area in and around Baghdad is critical, and very unpeaceful.
Mammal is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 07:08 AM
  #3  
Admin-Thanos
 
VinVega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Caught between the moon and NYC
Posts: 31,526
Imus had him on this morning and was lambasting Lieberman. He really took him to task on the run up to the war. Lieberman defended the administration almost all the way. The only thing he criticized Bush on was not having enough troops in Iraq right after the invasion to stop the looting and close down the borders.

Imus had an interesting resolution to the problem. He said, just give the country back to Saddam, he's probably learned his lesson. Of course, he's just a radio host and can say absurd things, Senators cannot. Well, that's not true either, is it?
VinVega is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 07:26 AM
  #4  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Originally Posted by Mammal
He was there for two days. I hope he's right, but I'm afraid it's just politics. It's worth observing that Kurdish areas, Sunni areas and unpopulated areas may be peaceful, but the area in and around Baghdad is critical, and very unpeaceful.
When & how long was Jack Murtha there?
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 07:27 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Originally Posted by VinVega
.Imus had an interesting resolution to the problem. He said, just give the country back to Saddam, he's probably learned his lesson. Of course, he's just a radio host and can say absurd things, Senators cannot. Well, that's not true either, is it?
The problem is that some people will take this fool seriously.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 08:19 AM
  #6  
Moderator
 
nemein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: 1bit away from total disaster
Posts: 34,141
Originally Posted by VinVega
Imus had an interesting resolution to the problem. He said, just give the country back to Saddam, he's probably learned his lesson.
Then we really would have lost 2000+ Americans, probably more than twice that in Iraqi security forces and somewhere between 27k-30k civilians for nothing
nemein is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 09:45 AM
  #7  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by nemein
Then we really would have lost 2000+ Americans, probably more than twice that in Iraqi security forces and somewhere between 27k-30k civilians for nothing
That's already true. And it will be true whenever we leave. Er, sorry, the numbers will be higher.
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 09:47 AM
  #8  
Moderator
 
nemein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: 1bit away from total disaster
Posts: 34,141
That's already true.
I disagree, if we do see a change in the Gov't in Iraq then it would have been for something. Or do you think the Iraqies don't want, can't understand the concept of an elected/representative Gov't?
nemein is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 10:20 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: New Jersey, where the state motto should be Leave No Tree Standing
Posts: 2,073
Originally Posted by nemein
I disagree, if we do see a change in the Gov't in Iraq then it would have been for something. Or do you think the Iraqies don't want, can't understand the concept of an elected/representative Gov't?
I think the Iraqis don't want/can't understand the concept of an elected/representative government.

The problem is there is no such thing as an Iraqi. It's an artificial nation created by the British after they defeated the Ottoman Empire in WWI. The people of Iraq have loyalty to their tribe first, then their particular sect of Islam. Tribal societies often interact with one another through violence. Saddam was able to suppress this using fear, intimidation and violence of his own. Now, I'm not saying this was good, it was not, but without it, the tribal divisions open up again.

The same violence can be seen in Afghanistan, Somalia, Rwanda and other African nations.

Without the presence of some sort of overwhelming military and/or authoritarian government, the violence will only continue until the artificial nation breaks down into civil war and a multitude of smaller nations, based on actual ethnicity and tribal affiliation, emerge.

Just because we call it democracy, doesn't mean it's the democracy we know. Look at Africa. Most elections there involve violence by the backers of each party and candidate. This is the closest Iraq will come to democracy.
RevLiver is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 10:21 AM
  #10  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by nemein
I disagree, if we do see a change in the Gov't in Iraq then it would have been for something. Or do you think the Iraqies don't want, can't understand the concept of an elected/representative Gov't?
We haven't even been able to install democracy in Haiti, for God's sake, and it's right off our coast, tiny, and a freakin' island. No borders to allow foreign troublemakers to cross.

On the whole, our record of creating democracy in other countries is abysmal. It doesn't work. And it especially won't work in a country like Iraq. For a million different reasons. One of which is that it never was a country. It was cobbled together decades ago and the various peoples hate each other. The only way to hold that together is with a dictator. Think Yugoslavia and Tito.
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 10:31 AM
  #11  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
We haven't even been able to install democracy in Haiti, for God's sake, and it's right off our coast, tiny, and a freakin' island. No borders to allow foreign troublemakers to cross.
But we've been able to throw out one group of thugs and install another group of thugs.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 11:44 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,813
Originally Posted by classicman2
When & how long was Jack Murtha there?
I understand he spent some time with the troops at a stateside hospital. That's a good place to learn something.
Mammal is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 11:47 AM
  #13  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
That's my point. I believe Murtha's withdrawal position is based on letters and seeing troops after returning home. I don't believe his position is based on solid foreign policy grounds - more on humanitarian grounds.

Last edited by classicman2; 11-30-05 at 11:52 AM.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 11:52 AM
  #14  
X
Administrator
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1987
Location: AA-
Posts: 10,732
Originally Posted by classicman2
I believe Murtha's his withdrawal position is based on letters and seeing troops after returning home. I don't believe his position is based on solid foreign policy grounds - more on humanitarian grounds.
This is my understanding as well.
X is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 12:01 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by classicman2
That's my point. I believe Murtha's withdrawal position is based on letters and seeing troops after returning home. I don't believe his position is based on solid foreign policy grounds - more on humanitarian grounds.
I thought his position was based on understanding the difference between a war that is winnable and one that is not.
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 12:35 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,813
Originally Posted by classicman2
That's my point. I believe Murtha's withdrawal position is based on letters and seeing troops after returning home. I don't believe his position is based on solid foreign policy grounds - more on humanitarian grounds.
Maybe so. Our government has created a huge mess for us. To be honest I don't know what to do about it.

We can't just pull out and leave it to the Iraqis to sort it out - we don't want a civil war in the center of the middle east or another fundamentalist islamic state. On the other hand we can't keep sending the same troops back for tour after tour, can we?
Mammal is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 12:44 PM
  #17  
Moderator
 
nemein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: 1bit away from total disaster
Posts: 34,141
Originally Posted by Mammal
We can't just pull out and leave it to the Iraqis to sort it out - we don't want a civil war in the center of the middle east or another fundamentalist islamic state. On the other hand we can't keep sending the same troops back for tour after tour, can we?
Seems like you are discounting the possibility of helping the Iraqies get their own security forces up in order.
nemein is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 12:55 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
I don't what do to do either.

The only reasonable course, I guess, is to train the Iraqis as fast as well as we can.

I don't buy the idea that some have put forward about withdrawing most of the American troops - leaving the Iraqis to fight the insurgency, while the remaining U. S. forces patrol the Iraq borders.

Another idea that I don't think has much merit is the creation of quick reaction force for the area. I don't know how many times I've heard the quick reaction force argument. I don't believe it is workable.

.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:00 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by nemein
Seems like you are discounting the possibility of helping the Iraqies get their own security forces up in order.
It is widely acknowledged that the security forces are completely infiltrated by insurgents.

This isn't going to work. Again, 3 different peoples who hate each other. They are not going to start cooperating. They will not look for political solutions.

It was never going to work. That is what has been so frustrating. I and others knew this was a non-starter before the war even began.
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:01 PM
  #20  
X
Administrator
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1987
Location: AA-
Posts: 10,732
Why aren't we training large numbers of Iraqis outside the country? Perhaps at our own bases, say in Afghanistan or even some in the U.S.? I do know some countries don't want them in their country.

It seems that there are a lot of disruptions doing it in Iraq and taking them out of Iraq and putting them into boot camp could help them cooperate with each other.
X is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:02 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk God
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Originally Posted by Lord Rick
It is widely acknowledged that the security forces are completely infiltrated by insurgents.
I believe that's an exaggeration.

There's probably some infilitration into the security forces.

There's probably some infilitration into the insurgency.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:09 PM
  #22  
Moderator
 
nemein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: 1bit away from total disaster
Posts: 34,141
It is widely acknowledged that the security forces are completely infiltrated by insurgents.
Please support this supposition. There are rumors of "death squads" and certainly there was the incident of the prison that was found a couple of weeks ago. I don't think/recall anyone stating "the security forces are <b>completely</b> inflitrated" though.

Last edited by nemein; 11-30-05 at 01:12 PM.
nemein is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:12 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by nemein
Please support this supposition.
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7828

for starters.

I can't believe you are even disputing this.
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:14 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 5,191
And here's another one, from the US government.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/07/25/iraq.police/
Lord Rick is offline  
Old 11-30-05, 01:18 PM
  #25  
Moderator
 
nemein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: 1bit away from total disaster
Posts: 34,141
Originally Posted by Lord Rick
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=7828

for starters.

I can't believe you are even disputing this.

From your own link

Is it possible to measure the level of infiltration?

Not with precision, experts say. Last October, Aqil al-Saffar, as aide to interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, said that as many as 5 percent of the Iraqi government's troops were insurgents or sympathizers, The New York Times reported. Some experts suggest the number may be higher. "Penetration of Iraqi security and military forces may be the rule, not the exception," Anthony Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Security International Studies, said in a January report. Some U.S. commanders agree. "The police and military forces all have insurgents in them. You don't have a pure force," Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Sinclair of the 1st Infantry Division told the Associated Press. However, focusing on the size of the infiltration misses the point, Gavrilis says. "I don't think the [overall] level of penetration is as much as most people think it is, because you don't really need a lot to do a lot of damage."
I agree it is a problem that needs to be handled, esp in light of the last statement. My disagrement comes w/ the statement they are completely inflitrated since noone seems to know the level. Just like corruption in police forces here in the US needs to be weeded out, it needs to be dealt w/ there as well. I still don't think it is an insurmountable problem but I seem to be more optimistic than most about the potential outlook in Iraq. Frankly at this point, I think the only thing that'll kill our chances of what we are doing there ultimately resulting in something good is loss of political will at home.
nemein is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.