Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events
Reload this Page >

The Pilgrims escaped famine by switching from collective farming to private farming.

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

The Pilgrims escaped famine by switching from collective farming to private farming.

Old 11-25-05, 06:41 PM
  #1  
Political Exile
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,987
The Pilgrims escaped famine by switching from collective farming to private farming.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007594

How the Pilgrims Made Progress

Behind the Pilgrims' bad harvest in 1621: a lack of property rights.

Friday, November 25, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

The textbooks don't explain why the Pilgrims had only a meager harvest in 1621, so we will. For their first two years in Plymouth, the settlers conducted an experiment in communalism. It wasn't until 1623 that they divided the land into private plots and could look forward to the kind of bounty that many of us enjoyed yesterday. In his "History of Plimoth Plantation," the colony's governor, William Bradford, wrote about how the settlers studied human nature and laid the foundation for true Thanksgiving:

All this while no supply was heard of, neither knew they when they might expect any. So they began to think how they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop than they had done, that they might not still thus languish in misery.

At length, after much debate of things, the Governor (with the advice of the chiefest amongst them) gave way that they should set corn every man for his own particular. . . . And so assigned to every family a parcel of land, according to the proportion of their number. . . .

This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could use . . . and gave far better content.

The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn; which before would allege weakness and inability; whom to have compelled would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

The experience that was had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanity of that conceit of Plato's and other ancients applauded by some of later times; and that the taking away of property and bringing in community into a commonwealth would make them happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For this community (so far as it was) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort.

For the young men, that were most able and fit for labor and service, did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense. The strong, or man of parts, had no more in division of victuals and clothes than he that was weak and not able to do a quarter the other could; this was thought injustice.

The aged and graver men to be ranked and equalized in labors and victuals, clothes, etc., with the meaner and younger sort, thought it some indignity and disrespect unto them. And for men's wives to be commanded to do service for other men, as dressing their meat, washing their clothes, etc., they deemed it a kind of slavery, neither could many husbands well brook it.

Upon the point all being to have alike, and all to do alike, they thought themselves in the like condition, and one as good as another; and so, if it did not cut off those relations that God hath set amongst men, yet it did at least much diminish and take off the mutual respects that should be preserved amongst them. And would have been worse if they had been men of another condition.

Let none object this is men's corruption, and nothing to [discredit] the course [of communalism] itself. I answer, seeing all men have this corruption in them, God in His wisdom saw another course fitter for them.
grundle is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 07:33 AM
  #2  
bhk
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Right of Atilla The Hun
Posts: 19,749
Good post. It seems our lib friends ignore countless lessons in history indicating that socialism fails every time.
bhk is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 08:04 AM
  #3  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Just think - some of our members seem to want to return to collective farming - corporate collective farming.
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 10:14 AM
  #4  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
I don't have a lot big enough for a farm.

I have a vegetable garden, does that count?
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 10:16 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
there was also an ice age until 1850, and some of the growing seasons were very poor because of it
al_bundy is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 10:49 AM
  #6  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Giantrobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South Bay
Posts: 56,461
I thought they survived by eating Indians?
Giantrobo is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 10:56 AM
  #7  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di SalÚ
Posts: 32,260
Originally Posted by bhk
Good post. It seems our lib friends ignore countless lessons in history indicating that socialism fails every time.
Right. Because liberalism = socialism.
wendersfan is online now  
Old 11-26-05, 11:26 AM
  #8  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Liberal and Liberalism don't necessarily go hand in hand these days. Heck, I'm a believer in true liberalism.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 11:27 AM
  #9  
DVD Talk God
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 68,522
Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
Liberal and Liberalism don't necessarily go hand in hand these days. Heck, I'm a believer in true liberalism.
By true liberalism - do you mean classic liberalism?
classicman2 is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 11:44 AM
  #10  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,443
Of the definitions I have found, this is the one I find most appealing:

<i>Liberalism: A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.</i>

As we all know, the way a political philosophy is defined is often marred by the manner in which it is implemented.

Also, reading more about liberalism, I'll revise my previous statement and say that there are parts of liberalism that I would stongly agree with, but I'm probably not a "believer in true liberalism.". I do have a problem with the first 10 words of the definition I posted above. I'm probably more in tune with classic libertarianism (stemming from classic liberalism?), though I would have to read up on the subject before being certain. I remember finding a lot in John Stuart Mill's <i>On Liberty</i> that appealed to me, sans a bit of utilitarianism. Naturally, my inclinations towards liberalism apply mostly to national matters. The role of our government in international matters is a bit tricky when dealing with those who are not under our own system of government (an increasingly important issue both politically and economically).

Last edited by Th0r S1mpson; 11-26-05 at 12:02 PM.
Th0r S1mpson is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 02:04 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,068
Originally Posted by bhk
Good post. It seems our lib friends ignore countless lessons in history indicating that socialism fails every time.
Every time? One of the most successful nations in the world was built on the back of collectivism. Swamps were drained and deserts reclaimed by these socialists. Many of the leaders of this nation came out of their collective farms.

Spoiler:
It's Israel, of course
JasonF is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 02:19 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
there is a reason why collectivism succeeded in israel and failed everywhere else. And these days israel is capitalist.
al_bundy is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 02:54 PM
  #13  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di SalÚ
Posts: 32,260
Originally Posted by al_bundy
there is a reason why collectivism succeeded in israel and failed everywhere else. And these days israel is capitalist.
Israel's maximum personal income tax rate is higher than Sweden's, France's, or Germany's. It's tax revenue as a % of GDP is higher than any industrialized nation except Denmark. Central government expenditures as a % of GDP is the highest of any developed country. In other words, by any measure I could find, Israel is as or more socialist than any democracy on the planet.
wendersfan is online now  
Old 11-26-05, 03:02 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,679
Israel actually once had swamps?

Wish we could drain our own damn swamps here.
Ranger is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 03:23 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,918
Originally Posted by Giantrobo
I thought they survived by eating Indians?
No, that was the Communism article.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 03:53 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Capitol of the Empire! Center of all Commerce and Culture! Crossroads of Civilization! NEW ROME!!!...aka New York City
Posts: 10,909
Originally Posted by wendersfan
Israel's maximum personal income tax rate is higher than Sweden's, France's, or Germany's. It's tax revenue as a % of GDP is higher than any industrialized nation except Denmark. Central government expenditures as a % of GDP is the highest of any developed country. In other words, by any measure I could find, Israel is as or more socialist than any democracy on the planet.
Im sure alot of that money goes towards stopping savages from blowing Israelites up at the bus stop.
Tommy Ceez is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 03:57 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,068
Actually, Tommy Ceez brings up a good point -- I was thinking of the kibbutzim when I mentioned Israel's collectivist history, but isn't their compulsory military service another form of collectivism?
JasonF is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 04:01 PM
  #18  
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di SalÚ
Posts: 32,260
Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
Im sure alot of that money goes towards stopping savages from blowing Israelites up at the bus stop.
Well, of course that's a large chunk of it. I wasn't making any value judgements, I was merely showing that Israel has a huge public sector compared to most countries, even those that are normally considered 'socialist'.
Originally Posted by JasonF
Actually, Tommy Ceez brings up a good point -- I was thinking of the kibbutzim when I mentioned Israel's collectivist history, but isn't their compulsory military service another form of collectivism?
In terms of its economy and the way the country is run, Israel is very much a country "at war". Structurally it very much resembles the WWII-era US.
wendersfan is online now  
Old 11-26-05, 06:04 PM
  #19  
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 966
Looking at some of the comments from the governor, no wonder they failed trying to work together. They didn't seem like very "Godly" people in their actions, even though they surely all considered themselves as such.

Every time? One of the most successful nations in the world was built on the back of collectivism. Swamps were drained and deserts reclaimed by these socialists. Many of the leaders of this nation came out of their collective farms.

It's Israel, of course


Amen. It's all a mindset. Sounds like the pilgrims who were the ancestors of this nation didn't have it. It explains alot.
shifrbv is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 06:14 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live, Buffalo NY
Posts: 29,694
Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
Im sure alot of that money goes towards stopping savages from blowing Israelites up at the bus stop.
the US pays most of those costs
which is why almost every israeli soldier you see now has an M16 varient instead of a galil or uzi
mikehunt is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 06:15 PM
  #21  
X
Administrator
 
X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1987
Location: AA-
Posts: 10,676
If Israel is doing so well why do we always have to give it about $3 billion a year in foreign aid? Not including around $8 billion in loan guarantees.
X is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 06:15 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Madison, WI ("77 square miles surrounded by reality")
Posts: 29,971
Originally Posted by JasonF
Every time? One of the most successful nations in the world was built on the back of collectivism. Swamps were drained and deserts reclaimed by these socialists. Many of the leaders of this nation came out of their collective farms.

Spoiler:
It's Israel, of course
One needs to ask whether the kibbutzes were forced on the people by government or were formed voluntarily by the people themselves. If it's the latter (which I think it was and is) I would submit that such "voluntary socialism" is entirely possible and allowable within a libertarian society.

Personally, I think such an arrangement seldom works but if people are like-minded enough and dedicated to some particular common goal it can work and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it from a libertarian perspective.

Although libertarianism most often manifests itself economically in free markets, that is not its essence. The essence is a society of "voluntaryism" where people live as they want, free of coercion. If some want to live in collectivist arrangements within the free society, that's great as long as they don't force it on people who do not want to live that way.

(Of course, many other aspects of Israeli life are not at all libertarian.)

An interesting thing to ponder is that a group of voluntary socialists can exist with no problem within a libertarian society. I don't see how voluntary libertarians can exist within a socialist society.

Last edited by movielib; 11-26-05 at 06:24 PM.
movielib is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 07:18 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 51,918
Originally Posted by X
If Israel is doing so well why do we always have to give it about $3 billion a year in foreign aid? Not including around $8 billion in loan guarantees.
I'm sure David Duke has a few answers to that one. Fantasy answers from a demented white supremacist aside, I can't recall a country the US didn't give money to.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 08:30 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: in da cloud
Posts: 26,196
the kibbutzes are voluntary and my brother worked on one once for a few months

the reason it works in israel is because something like 90% of the citizens are jewish. the people share a common bond, especially since the country was formed after the holocaust. The US may have been found by christians, but it's a different situation since there are so many national identities.
al_bundy is offline  
Old 11-26-05, 09:24 PM
  #25  
Political Exile
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 15,987
Originally Posted by bhk
Good post. It seems our lib friends ignore countless lessons in history indicating that socialism fails every time.
Thanks.
grundle is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.