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Hillary Vs. Rudy Would Be Blockbuster Race

Old 11-19-05, 09:04 PM
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Hillary Vs. Rudy Would Be Blockbuster Race

ALBANY, N.Y. - In a political universe unaccustomed to single-name celebrities there are "Hillary" and "Rudy."

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Democratic Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the only former first lady ever elected to public office. Republican Rudolph Giuliani is the man dubbed "America's Mayor" for his leadership after terrorists struck his city, New York, on Sept. 11, 2001.

The two lead party rivals in polling for the far-off White House race in 2008, a potential blockbuster matchup that promises all the political buzz and tabloid hype that only Hillary versus Rudy could deliver. Neither has committed publicly to running.

"They transcend the swamp of New York politics," said Republican strategist Nelson Warfield. "Because of their celebrity, Clinton and Giuliani are able to rise above the mire that soils so many other New York politicians."

Clinton says her sole focus is winning a second Senate term in 2006. Still, the silence about 2008 has failed to quiet the speculation.

Former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo himself mentioned as a presidential contender in 1988 and 1992 says neither Clinton, who grew up in suburban Chicago, nor Giuliani, a Brooklyn native, is a typical New York politician.

"If you were Merlin and you had taken a young boy with a fragile build and dipped him into the cauldron of boiling juices from lizards' insides and produced a knight with the biggest, broadest sword ever seen, you wouldn't have a better miracle than Giuliani produced by 9-11," Cuomo said.

"I wish I could say he was the product of a developed politics here that is so strong, but he wasn't," Cuomo said. "And, neither was Hillary. Hillary was an import from Washington who chose, to our benefit, to come to New York. Yeah, they are New Yorkers now and very much so, but not a product of New York politics."

New York has not had one of its own elected president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt won a fourth term in 1944. Since then, several New Yorkers almost all of them Republicans have come close to the Oval Office or earned a spot on a national ticket.

Gov. Thomas Dewey, who lost to Roosevelt in 1944, finished a close second to President Truman in 1948. William E. Miller, a New York congressman, was Barry Goldwater's running mate in 1964. Former Gov. Nelson Rockefeller was appointed vice president during Gerald Ford's administration in the 1970s. Jack Kemp, a congressman and then housing secretary for the first President Bush, was on the unsuccessful 1996 GOP ticket as Bob Dole's running mate.

The lone New York Democrat on a national ticket was Geraldine Ferraro, a congresswoman who was Walter Mondale's running mate in 1984.

"You don't find much presidential timber in New York because the soil is polluted with machine politics," said Warfield, a top aide on the Dole campaign. "Unlimited incumbency and almost unlimited patronage breed grubby politicians. But Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani cut in line to win here without paying dues to the spoils system."

Giuliani has spent more time in elected office. He was the No. 3 official in the Justice Department under President Reagan and was the U.S. attorney in New York City.

He ran for mayor in 1989 and lost. He won in 1993 and served through 2001, forced out by term limits. So popular was the tough-on-crime mayor that there were rumblings of rescinding the city's term limits to let him serve on.

In 2000, Giuliani was seen as a formidable opponent to Clinton's history-making run for the Senate, but he dropped out after being diagnosed with prostate cancer.

In her only run for public office, Clinton flattened the GOP's stand-in standard-bearer, then-Rep. Rick Lazio. She captured 55 percent of the vote in a state populated by five Democrats for every three Republicans.

Clinton, wife of former President Clinton, is no stranger to high-stakes politics. She played an important role in her husband's campaigns and administration, including her handling of his failed health care reform effort.

Clinton and Giuliani are not the only New Yorkers who might make a White House bid in 2008. New York's Republican governor, George Pataki, is also considering a presidential run after ruling out a bid for a fourth term next year. Pataki, however, is barely a blip in national polls.

New York has been losing political clout as the nation's population growth has shifted to the South and West, down to just 31 electoral votes from a high of 47 in 1942.

Both Giuliani and Clinton will have to work to shed the state's image as a liberal bastion Giuliani in the GOP primaries where the party's conservative base rules and Clinton nationally.

Cuomo said that with Clinton headed for what he thinks will be a big re-election victory next year, the focus of the nation could again be on his home state.

"The country is going to be in a New York state of mind from 2006 to 2008," he said.
No snippy trolling posts.

I just can't believe that the democrats are still going with Hillary as the frontrunner. I just don't think she has a chance in hell of winning, not because she's a woman, but because... well... does anyone actually like her?'

As someone who is neither a hardcore dem or republican, I would like to see 2 excellent candidates from both sides to ensure our country is in good hands.

What do the dems on here think? Does she actually stand a chance in hell of winning? Or would be good for the country for that matter?

Again, no snippy troll posts. Thx.
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Old 11-19-05, 10:32 PM
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How many times does it have to be said? Rudy has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a GOP presidential nomination. He have a better chance winning a Democratic nomination.

Hillary is most certainly the frontrunner for the Dems in '08 - she has the money behind her.
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Old 11-19-05, 11:17 PM
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"If you were Merlin and you had taken a young boy with a fragile build and dipped him into the cauldron of boiling juices from lizards' insides and produced a knight with the biggest, broadest sword ever seen, you wouldn't have a better miracle than Giuliani produced by 9-11," Cuomo said.
Is there a stranger political quote in history?
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Old 11-19-05, 11:22 PM
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I thought it was Hillary Duff vs. Sean Astin.

I'm not sure that Hillary is any kind of "frontrunner."

I think the media's just playing up that angle.

I'm also not sure how much support Rudy Giulinai would get from the hardcore GOP base, which tends to be hardline social/religious conservative. I doubt he could make it out of the primaries against a "religious conservative."
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Old 11-19-05, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
How many times does it have to be said? Rudy has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a GOP presidential nomination. He have a better chance winning a Democratic nomination.
So true - there's no way the conservatives in the Republican Party would allow a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate to head the ticket.
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Old 11-19-05, 11:27 PM
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Hillary can win her party's nomination because she will be the establishment candidate for the Democrats. The liberal activists base still love her even as she tries and move to the center on immigration, abortion, Iraq. One can forsee a scenerio where Vilsack could? win Iowa as a favorite son, but really unless someone positions themselves as the alternative to Hillary, she will steamroll them in the primaries.

I not read enough on Giuliani to know if he is a tested candidate. He has a tendency to say things that are pretty dumb i.e. at first blaming the troops for not guarding that ammunication dump during 2004 GWB reelection. My question is, can a pro-choice, pro-gay rights candidate from NYC who has gone through a messy divorce
win in a Republican primary? I dunno.
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Old 11-19-05, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by marty888
So true - there's no way the conservatives in the Republican Party would allow a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate to head the ticket.
Any way a pro-life, anti-gay rights candidate could win the Dem nomination?

The Republicans at least allow pro-choice people to have a voice at the conventions, while the Dems do not. Big tent, and all, I suppose.
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Old 11-20-05, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Any way a pro-life, anti-gay rights candidate could win the Dem nomination?

The Republicans at least allow pro-choice people to have a voice at the conventions, while the Dems do not. Big tent, and all, I suppose.
Repeat a lie enough times and people will eventually believe it. I guess that's your plan. Hannity would be so proud.

Just a few names you might have heard of that are pro-life Dems who've spoken at various Democratic conventions: Senator John Breaux, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, Senator Howard Heflin, and Mayor Richard M. Daley Jr.

And many governors other than Bob Casey, who were willing to endorse the Democractic nominee, which Casey wasn't, have spoken as well.

Know any Republicans who weren't willing to endorse their own party's nomination for President who have spoken at Bush's conventions? Didn't think so.

The Democrats promoted a pro-life Mormon to the highest position in the Senate, while the Republicans were trying to oust pro-choice Arlen Specter from his position as Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. I wonder if that had anything to do with the Republicans not wanting one of their own to get in the way of getting pro-life activist judges onto the Supreme Court?

Last edited by dolphinboy; 11-20-05 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 11-20-05, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vandelay_Inds
Giuliani is a mix of the best from both parties: social liberal + strong on defense, crime, economy + has amply demonstrated his ability to get results, not just spew rhetoric. He is the clear pick for '08, especially if coupled with Condi as VP.
Giuliani has no, zero, chance of winning the GOP nominaion for president in 2008.

And, just as kvrdave said - a pro-life candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the Democratic nomination.

Democrats who have a history of being pro-life have a 'miraculous conversion' to pro-choice if they run for the Democratic nomination for president - Clinton, Gore, & Gephardt readily come to mind.

Granted - George H. W. Bush experienced that same conversion when he decided to run for president.

Last edited by classicman2; 11-20-05 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 11-20-05, 06:44 AM
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When is the last time you've heard Harry Reid speak about his opposition to abortion on the Senate floor? I believe his NRAL rating is about 40.


while the Republicans were trying to oust pro-choice Arlen Specter from his position as Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. I wonder if that had anything to do with the Republicans not wanting one of their own to get in the way of getting pro-life activist judges onto the Supreme Court?
If the Republicans were trying to oust Specter for the judiciary chairmanship, they would have done so. There were at least 2 simple ways to do it: 1. The Republican Senate Caucus could have voted him out; 2. Charles Grassley (R/IA) could have said he wanted the position. He was senior to Specter. Senator Hatch is a definite pro-life Senator. He supported Specter. There were a few Republican Senators who wanted some assurance that Specter wouldn't derail a Bush judicial nominee in the committee. In other words - if it's a tie vote, Specter would report the nomination to the floor.
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Old 11-20-05, 06:57 AM
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When is the last time you've seen a floor fight in the Democratic National Convention on the issue of abortion?

When is the last time you've seen a floor fight in the Republican National Convention on the issue of abortion?

When is the last time you've seen a pro-life Democrat as the Senate Judiciary Chairman?
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Old 11-20-05, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by marty888
So true - there's no way the conservatives in the Republican Party would allow a pro-abortion, pro-gay rights candidate to head the ticket.
There's a better chance (however tiny) of that happening in the Republican Party than the opposite type of candidate happening in the Democratic Party.
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Old 11-20-05, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
No snippy trolling posts.

I just can't believe that the democrats are still going with Hillary as the frontrunner. I just don't think she has a chance in hell of winning, not because she's a woman, but because... well... does anyone actually like her?'
This has to be some sort of record for someone contradicting themselves around here.
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Old 11-20-05, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
How many times does it have to be said? Rudy has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a GOP presidential nomination. He have a better chance winning a Democratic nomination.

Hillary is most certainly the frontrunner for the Dems in '08 - she has the money behind her.
I guess I haven't been following this as much as you politicos

Wow that's shame that Rudy couldn't get the nomination. I really like what the guy has to say and I think he'd be good for the country. I really don't care what he thinks about abortion since I doubt he'd get away with activist judges (not that I care that much -- abortion isn't my issue).

Hillary on the other hand, doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning the race. What states will she win other than NY and CA?

I'd love to see a good candidate that takes issues from both sides... Specificially: illegal immigration (the majority of American wants to see this slow way down), legal immigration (importing H1B's when it's unnecessary), cutting down on crime (obviously Rudy would bring a lot to the table there), and other stuff like that... I don't care what party they are from, I'd vote for them. Someone who has beliefs that go outside the party lines because they aren't some sort of cog for the political machine.

But that's just me
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Old 11-20-05, 08:52 AM
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I thought you were talking about a mud-wrestling match between the gal from Fresh Prince, and the gal from The Cosby Show.

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Old 11-20-05, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
I just can't believe that the democrats are still going with Hillary as the frontrunner. I just don't think she has a chance in hell of winning, not because she's a woman, but because... well... does anyone actually like her?'
Hmm... the Democrats putting up a candidate who has no chance of winning? Nah, that'd never happen...
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Old 11-20-05, 10:06 AM
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I can't see good 'ol boys in Alabama voting for a mayor of New York City.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
I can't see good 'ol boys in Alabama voting for a mayor of New York City.
Are you kidding? Them good 'ol boys are the primary market of FDNY merchandise.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason
Are you kidding? Them good 'ol boys are the primary market of FDNY merchandise.
I thought NYC stood for everything that they are opposed to....
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Old 11-20-05, 10:36 AM
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They'd vote for Rudy because of what he stood for on 9/11 and that memory is still fresh in their minds.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:37 AM
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To quote bhk: Giuliani is a RINO.

Just as Harry Reid is a PLINO.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Gallant Pig
They'd vote for Rudy because of what he stood for on 9/11 and that memory is still fresh in their minds.

I don't think so.
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Old 11-20-05, 10:40 AM
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The fact that bhk said that makes him all the better candidate in my eyes.

So who is the frontrunner for the repubs at this point? Frist?
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Old 11-20-05, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
I don't think so.
Maybe not, but if given the choice between him and Hillary, the choice becomes pretty clear no?
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Old 11-20-05, 10:41 AM
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Are you talking about who the media says is the front runner or who really is the front runner?

Last edited by classicman2; 11-20-05 at 10:43 AM.
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