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NY. Proposal 1 and 2. Thoughts?

Old 11-06-05, 09:27 PM
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NY. Proposal 1 and 2. Thoughts?

I'm not sure on prop2, but prop1 is definitely getting a no vote from me.
Kind of leaning no on number 2 too.

Having trouble finding sites for them that aren't editorials pushing one view or another.
this seems fairly fair
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

Basically, proposal 1 will allow the legislature to have even more power in the budget process and ignore the governor even more than they already do

Proposal 2 is some sort of transportation bond thing, from what I've seen the NY City area gets the vast majority of the money, and NY gets more debt


http://www.elections.state.ny.us/dow...tquestions.pdf

Last edited by mikehunt; 11-06-05 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 11-06-05, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
Proposal 2 is some sort of transportation bond thing, from what I've seen the NY City area gets the vast majority of the money, and NY gets more debt
Dear Upstate,

NYC is supporting NYS. Period. The transportation in NYC needs major improvements so Proposal 2 is one of the best ones I've seen.

The fact the NYS 'gets more debt' has nothing to do with NYC, but with NYC supporting NYS.
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Old 11-06-05, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by exm
Dear Upstate,

NYC is supporting NYS. Period. The transportation in NYC needs major improvements so Proposal 2 is one of the best ones I've seen.

The fact the NYS 'gets more debt' has nothing to do with NYC, but with NYC supporting NYS.
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Old 11-07-05, 08:55 AM
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Vote YES on Prop 2!

Every new capitol project in the TA keeps me in a job!
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Old 11-07-05, 11:20 AM
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i'm thinking of going to vote tomorrow just to make sure ferrer doesn't become mayor

if i do vote, i'll probably vote for prop 2
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Old 11-07-05, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by al_bundy
i'm thinking of going to vote tomorrow just to make sure ferrer doesn't become mayor

if i do vote, i'll probably vote for prop 2
I don't really like either Bloomberg or Ferrer... I'll probably vote for the Rent Is Too Damn High! Party candidate, just because he's awesome.

Definite yes on Prop 2.
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Old 11-07-05, 11:59 AM
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An Article from the WSJ; might help a bit, although bear in mind the WSJ leans conservative when it comes to financial matters:

Prop One's Money
November 7, 2005; Page A20

When powerful special interests start throwing money at obscure statewide ballot propositions, voters are wise to take notice. Tomorrow, New Yorkers will find something called Proposal One on the ballot, and they might be interested to know who's backing it and why.

A primary supporter of the measure -- which would alter the state constitution to give the legislature the upper hand in annual budget negotiations with the governor -- are public-sector unions. Dennis Rivera's Local 1199, the state healthcare-workers union, has kicked in $500,000. The New York State United Teachers has donated $25,000, as has CSEA, the largest state and local employees union.

Labor's interest is obvious. As E.J. McMahon of the Manhattan Institute's Empire Center for New York State Policy told us, "Prop One makes it easier for legislators to put Medicaid and education spending increases on autopilot, and they love that idea."

Less obvious is the interest of media giant Cablevision, which in the past week has spent $750,000 to promote Prop One. One explanation is that Cablevision cares less about the merits of the proposal than about returning a political favor. Earlier this year Prop One's architects and lead lobbyists, Republican Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno and Democratic Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, helped quash plans to build a stadium on Manhattan's West Side that would have competed for events with Madison Square Garden, which is owned by Cablevision. The Dolan family that controls Cablevision ought to be embarrassed, assuming that's possible.

Opponents include all serious budget analysts, as well Governor George Pataki and his predecessors. Notably unhelpful has been Democratic candidate for governor, Eliot Spitzer, who'll say he's opposed if asked but hasn't shown any leadership. This will haunt Mr. Spitzer if he wins, because Prop One is a power grab by the legislature that would limit the governor's ability to veto spending bills. At a time when more than a dozen states are weighing proposals to slow the growth of government -- through constitutional tax and expenditure limits -- New York's lawmakers all too typically want to move in the opposite direction.

Corrections & Amplifications: E.J. McMahon of the Manhattan Institute said: "Prop One makes it easier for legislators to put Medicaid and education spending increases on autopilot." In the initial version of this article, he was incorrectly quoted saying Prop One would make it easier to put Medicare on autopilot.
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Old 11-07-05, 09:20 PM
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my feeling is this
if NYC needs better transportation they need to:
1) raise fees
2) raise city taxes
3) sell city bonds

just like if Buffalo wants to expand the pathetic rail system they need to sell city bonds or raise city fees and taxes, not expect the rest of NY to build up debt
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Old 11-07-05, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
my feeling is this
if NYC needs better transportation they need to:
1) raise fees
2) raise city taxes
3) sell city bonds

just like if Buffalo wants to expand the pathetic rail system they need to sell city bonds or raise city fees and taxes, not expect the rest of NY to build up debt
So you would vote no?

Do you know the last time when NYC invested in it's public transportation system? And how much we're contributing to NYS?
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Old 11-07-05, 10:10 PM
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yup, I've decided to vote no on both proposals
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Old 11-07-05, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
my feeling is this
if NYC needs better transportation they need to:
1) raise fees
2) raise city taxes
3) sell city bonds

just like if Buffalo wants to expand the pathetic rail system they need to sell city bonds or raise city fees and taxes, not expect the rest of NY to build up debt
most of NY State's tax base is because of NYC
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Old 11-07-05, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
yup, I've decided to vote no on both proposals
I'll vote YES on Prop 2 to cancel out mikehunt's vote.
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Old 11-07-05, 10:26 PM
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guess i will have to go and vote as well

but my main reason will be to make sure ferrer is not elected
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Old 11-08-05, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
my feeling is this
if NYC needs better transportation they need to:
1) raise fees
2) raise city taxes
3) sell city bonds

just like if Buffalo wants to expand the pathetic rail system they need to sell city bonds or raise city fees and taxes, not expect the rest of NY to build up debt
I would love to see NYC form its own state and watch in glee as upstate collapses in on itself, unable to pay for anything.

We pretty much pay for the state government. Therefore, we should get more. I wonder what actual share of upstate taxes would go towards the transportation bond?
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Old 11-08-05, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TracerBullet
I would love to see NYC form its own state and watch in glee as upstate collapses in on itself, unable to pay for anything.

We pretty much pay for the state government. Therefore, we should get more. I wonder what actual share of upstate taxes would go towards the transportation bond?
Doubtful

NYC was bankrupt for decades and NYS was just fine.

BTW...Prop 2 is VERY important exactly because of the bankrupcy...for 20+ years NYCT was unable to perform ANY improvements because there were no funds...AAMOF, it has just NOW completly finished all the repairs that were put off in the 70's-80's and thats why it can FINALLY expand.

Last edited by Tommy Ceez; 11-08-05 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 11-08-05, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
Doubtful

NYC was bankrupt for decades and NYS was just fine.
While that's true, remember that a large portion of the financial problems of NYC in the 70s had two factors: greatly decreasing population, as well as a corrupt and inflexible political system. The city government simply wasn't equipped to deal with these problems. Also, NYC wasn't bankrupt for "decades"- it was more like a decade, if that.

Take NYC's tax base away from present-day NYS and watch what happens.
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Old 11-08-05, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TracerBullet
While that's true, remember that a large portion of the financial problems of NYC in the 70s had two factors: greatly decreasing population, as well as a corrupt and inflexible political system. The city government simply wasn't equipped to deal with these problems. Also, NYC wasn't bankrupt for "decades"- it was more like a decade, if that.

Take NYC's tax base away from present-day NYS and watch what happens.
How is this different than Chicago/Illinois, Seattle/Washington, Miami/Florida?
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Old 11-08-05, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
How is this different than Chicago/Illinois, Seattle/Washington, Miami/Florida?
Not much- but I'm not getting your point. Maybe those cities should be states, too.
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Old 11-08-05, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
Doubtful

NYC was bankrupt for decades and NYS was just fine.

BTW...Prop 2 is VERY important exactly because of the bankrupcy...for 20+ years NYCT was unable to perform ANY improvements because there were no funds...AAMOF, it has just NOW completly finished all the repairs that were put off in the 70's-80's and thats why it can FINALLY expand.
the people still lived in NY state and paid their taxes. If New Yorkers were to form their own state, then NY state would lose half it's tax base
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Old 11-08-05, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
How is this different than Chicago/Illinois, Seattle/Washington, Miami/Florida?
So you're saying that WA and FL residents should also vote down transportation bills in their states to improve their capitals/largest cities transportation system?

It sounds pretty selfish to me.

And the argument that has been brought up to increase fares: that has been done already a couple of years ago, from $1.50 to $2 (that's about 33%)

Raise city taxes: are you aware that NYC residents are already taxed on non federal level about 50% higher than 'normal' NYS residents (if you compare just state tax to state tax+city tax)?

It's so easy to squeeze more out of NYC "Let's raise taxes and increase fares" instead of giving something back to an area that contributes so much to the whole state. And we're not talking about projects like the 'Alaska bridge to nowhere'; these are necessary and long over due improvements.
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Old 11-08-05, 10:55 AM
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Voted NO on #1 (The Bruno & Silver Show has been running for too long already)

Voted YES on #2
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Old 11-08-05, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
my feeling is this
if NYC needs better transportation they need to:
1) raise fees
2) raise city taxes
3) sell city bonds

just like if Buffalo wants to expand the pathetic rail system they need to sell city bonds or raise city fees and taxes, not expect the rest of NY to build up debt
A lot of people in the NYC suburbs work in the city and use the transportation system here. No reason why they can't help pay for it.
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Old 11-08-05, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TracerBullet
Not much- but I'm not getting your point. Maybe those cities should be states, too.
All your blue belong to us!



Take all those cities and give us the rest of the state!
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Old 11-08-05, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mosquitobite
All your blue belong to us!



Take all those cities and give us the rest of the state!
I would have no problem with this arrangement. It would be fun to watch the states degenerate into budget black holes minus their cash cow cities.

Last edited by TracerBullet; 11-08-05 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 11-08-05, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TracerBullet
I would have no problem with this arrangement. It would be fun to watch the states degenerate into budget black holes minus their cash cow cities.
Although, as a New Yorker, I somewhat agree with this statement, I think those of us in big cities would get hungry pretty quick if we didn't share some tax revenue with our farmer friends.

Why can't we all just get along?
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