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Armitage admits he was Novak's source

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Armitage admits he was Novak's source

Old 07-11-05, 02:01 PM
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Looks like we need to add to the list:

Maxine Waters
Ramsey Clark
Jacques Chirac
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Old 07-11-05, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
I think you mean "But, but, but, but, but, but, but if Time had the goods on Rove, they would have sold him out immediately because the liberal media hates Republicans."

Actually this does surprise the hell out of me. Not just because he was a conservative, but I tended to be jaded enough to believe that any reporter than had something like this on either candidate would manage to make sure it leaked.

I was definately wrong.
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Old 07-11-05, 02:38 PM
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Some disturbing facts about Karl Rove.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nosamabinladen

By Ted Rall
KARL ROVE: WORSE THAN OSAMA BIN LADEN

NEW YORK--In war collaborators are more dangerous than enemy forces, for they betray with intimate knowledge in painful detail and demoralize by their cynical example. This explains why, at the end of occupations, the newly liberated exact vengeance upon their treasonous countrymen even they allow foreign troops to conduct an orderly withdrawal.

If, as state-controlled media insists, there is such a creature as a Global War on Terrorism, our enemies are underground Islamist organizations allied with or ideologically similar to those that attacked us on 9/11. But who are the collaborators?

The right points to critics like Michael Moore, yours truly, and Ward Churchill, the Colorado professor who points out the gaping chasm between America's high-falooting rhetoric and its historical record. But these bęte noires are guilty only of the all-American actions of criticism and dissent, not to mention speaking uncomfortable truths to liars and deniers. As far as we know, no one on what passes for the "left" (which would be the center-right anywhere else) has betrayed the United States in the GWOT. No anti-Bush progressive has made common cause with Al Qaeda, Hamas, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or any other officially designated "terrorist" group. No American liberal has handed over classified information or worked to undermine the CIA.

But it now appears that Karl Rove, GOP golden boy, has done exactly that.

Last week Time magazine turned over its reporter's notes to a special prosecutor assigned to learn who told Republican columnist Bob Novak that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent. The revelation, which effectively ended Plame's CIA career and may have endangered her life, followed her husband Joe Wilson's publication of a New York Times op-ed piece that embarrassed the Bush Administration by debunking its claims that Saddam Hussein tried to buy uranium from Niger. Time's cowardly decision to break its promise to a confidential source has had one beneficial side effect: according to Newsweek, it indicates that Karl Rove himself made the call to Novak.

One might have expected Rove, the master White House political strategist who engineered Bush's 2000 coup d'état and post-9/11 permanent war public relations campaign, to have ordered a flunky underling to carry out this act of high treason. But as the Arab saying goes, arrogance diminishes wisdom.

Rove, whose gaping maw recently vomited forth that Democrats didn't care about 9/11, is atypically silent. He did talk to the Time reporter but "never knowingly disclosed classified information," claims his attorney. But there's circumstantial evidence to go along with Time's leaked notes. Ari Fleischer abruptly resigned as Bush's press secretary on May 16, 2003, about the same time the White House became aware of Ambassador Wilson's plans to go public. (Wilson's article appeared July 6.) Did Fleischer quit because he didn't want to act as spokesman for Rove's plan to betray CIA agent Plame? Another interesting coincidence: Novak published his Plame column on July 14, Fleischer's last day on the job.

If Newsweek's report is accurate, Karl Rove is more morally repugnant and more anti-American than Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden, after all, has no affiliation with, and therefore no presumed loyalty to, the United States. Rove, on the other hand, is a U.S. citizen and, as deputy White House chief of staff, a high-ranking official of the U.S. government sworn to uphold and defend our nation, its laws and its interests. Yet he sold out America just to get even with Joe Wilson.

Osama bin Laden, conversely, is loyal to his cause. He has never exposed an Al Qaeda agent's identity to the media.

"[Knowingly revealing Plame's name and undercover status to the media]...is a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act and is punishable by as much as ten years in prison," notes the Washington Post. Unmasking an intelligent agent during a time of war, however, surely rises to giving aid and comfort to America's enemies--treason. Treason is punishable by execution under the United States Code.

How far up the White House food chain does the rot of treason go? "Bush has always known how to keep Rove in his place," wrote Time in 2002 about a "symbiotic relationship" that dates to 1973. This isn't some rogue "plumbers" operation. Rove would never go it alone on a high-stakes action like Valerie Plame. It's a safe bet that other, higher-ranking figures in the Bush cabal--almost certainly Dick Cheney and possibly Bush himself--signed off before Rove called Novak. For the sake of national security, those involved should be removed from office at once.

Rove and his collaborators should quickly resign and face prosecution for betraying their country, but given their sense of personal entitlement impeachment is probably the best we can hope for. Congress, and all Americans, should place patriotism ahead of party loyalty.
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Old 07-11-05, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Myster X
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nosamabinladen

By Ted Rall
KARL ROVE: WORSE THAN OSAMA BIN LADEN

It makes you wonder if anyone actually thinks that a line like that will allow anyone to take anything they say seriously.

Compare someone to Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, Stalin, etc., and you better be comparing them to each other, rather than someone like Rove. He is no angel, by any means, but it would be just as stupid to compare Dean, Kennedy, or anyone else to those people.

True asshattery.
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Old 07-11-05, 02:45 PM
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With those kinds of analogies, Rall will be the leader of a long line of people whose cumulative IQ reaches double digits.
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Old 07-11-05, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bfrank
If he through his lawyer has admitted guilt then the talk of a trial is a technicallity.

For those on the right-
(if) he did it what should the penalty be?
He should be slapped with the same iron fist that Sandy Berger received for stealing and destroying classified documents. Oh, wait, that was just an innocent mistake, right?
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Old 07-11-05, 03:33 PM
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He should be slapped with the same iron fist that Sandy Berger received for stealing and destroying classified documents.
How dare you say he was stealing them! They wound up being stuffed in his pants and socks purely by accident.
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Old 07-11-05, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dick_grayson
you might want to see a doctor about that

his head in the sand would've been a more accurate picture
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Old 07-11-05, 05:22 PM
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This is pretty crazy. The extent of this needs to be investigated and if he's really the initial source of the leak, Rove needs to get slammed.
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Old 07-11-05, 05:39 PM
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I just wanted to say that...I LOVE NCMojo when he's in bitch-slapping mode!

That is all...
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Old 07-11-05, 06:04 PM
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Apparently - if Rove didn't mention her name, he didn't violate the law.

Rove's attorney stated that he didn't - he didn't even know her name according to the attorney.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:11 PM
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And if he didn't know she was a clandestine agent there was no violation.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Apparently - if Rove didn't mention her name, he didn't violate the law.
Does Rove have information that the current President (I don't want to name names) stole the election in 2000?
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Old 07-11-05, 06:18 PM
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Some Democrats are saying that Bush ought to fire Rove.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Some Democrats are saying that Bush ought to fire Rove.

Haven't they been saying/hoping for that for awhile though?
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Old 07-11-05, 07:01 PM
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That's probably true.

I wonder if what these same Democrats said about the DOD asst. secretary who leaked Linda Tripp's personnel record to the media? Somehow I don't believe they said he should have been fired.

Last edited by classicman2; 07-11-05 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 07-11-05, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
It makes you wonder if anyone actually thinks that a line like that will allow anyone to take anything they say seriously.

Compare someone to Hitler, Bin Laden, Hussein, Stalin, etc., and you better be comparing them to each other, rather than someone like Rove. He is no angel, by any means, but it would be just as stupid to compare Dean, Kennedy, or anyone else to those people.

True asshattery.
Never heard of the author, but I'd be confident the headline is what is known as "hyperbole" and the subject is what is known as "irony."
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Old 07-11-05, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by X
And if he didn't know she was a clandestine agent there was no violation.
Depends what the definition of "is" is.
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Old 07-11-05, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
Never heard of the author, but I'd be confident the headline is what is known as "hyperbole" and the subject is what is known as "irony."
You give Rall too much credit. He's the asshat who made a cartoon calling Pat Tillman an idoit and a sap for dying in Afganistan and depicting him as a racist who only wanted to "kill arabs".
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Old 07-11-05, 10:43 PM
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You know, I am (as always) frankly amazed by the conservatives on this forum. You all seem to be intelligent, insightful people, and yet your version of "rebuttals" almost invariably seem to center around semantics or rehashed talking points. Where's the research? Where's the attempt at insight? All I seem to here is, "Well, the liberals do this and the Democrats do that." Stop setting up straw men and tackle the argument head on.

Karl Rove's lawyer may tapdance around the legality of his actions -- right now, he seems to be focusing on the phrase "knowingly", somehow twisting this around to bely the idea of "ignorance of the law is no excuse". The fact is that Karl Rove should never have been privy to the name of active CIA agents, and he should never have been handing out this kind of false information to his pet cadre of journalists.

And I cannot imagine how any single one of you can just sit there and try to explain away or excuse his actions. I thought you all loved America? I thought you all were united in your War on Terrorism?

Does your partisanship really mean you have to turn a blind eye to everything??? Can not a one of you stand up and say, "I support the President, but Karl Rove needs to go?"
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Old 07-11-05, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
Does your partisanship really mean you have to turn a blind eye to everything??? Can not a one of you stand up and say, "I support the President, but Karl Rove needs to go?"
Well said. It's amazing to me that a lot of people on this board are completely incapable of admitting that the Repubs/President/conservatives ever do anything wrong.

It's a complete impossibilty: They are still human beings. There is no WAY they are all perfect.
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Old 07-11-05, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Apparently - if Rove didn't mention her name, he didn't violate the law.

Rove's attorney stated that he didn't - he didn't even know her name according to the attorney.
Yeah, if that's the case, then it's pretty likely nothing will/should happen to Rove. However, I'm curious how her name really came into play, maybe some people figured Rove was talking about her and in a premature manner, decided to bring her into the spotlight.
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Old 07-11-05, 11:14 PM
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Well said. It's amazing to me that a lot of people on this board are completely incapable of admitting that the Repubs/President/conservatives ever do anything wrong.

It's a complete impossibilty: They are still human beings. There is no WAY they are all perfect.
I agree Reps/Cons aren't perfect but neither are they heartless (as atleast one person around here likes to continually go on about) nor evil incarnate. Regarding Rove there are still too many unanswered questions that remain, the main one being whether or not her identity was an "open secret" as many have implied. Potentially that's just a smoke screen/disinformation to muddle the facts, however I've been around DC long enough to know there are plenty of people who shouldn't know some of the things they know and to top it off they don't know they're not supposed to know them. As you mention people make mistakes, couldn't this potentially be one of them? Personally I don't know either way and like I said there's still too many unanswered questions. If he's guilty I think there should be consequences but I'm not foolish enough to believe there actualy will be (and this would apply no matter which party this sort of controversy centered around).

Regarding the "partisanship" I guess since the Dems/Libs like to demonize Reps/Cons/Rove in particular so much though it's only natural to respond in kind (that's not to say the Dems necessarily "started it" as things have been spiraling out of control for awhile now). That's the way of politics these days. It sucks but w/ the people we have in charge of the two major parties right now I don't see it changing anytime soon.
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Old 07-11-05, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
You know, I am (as always) frankly amazed by the conservatives on this forum. You all seem to be intelligent, insightful people, and yet your version of "rebuttals" almost invariably seem to center around semantics or rehashed talking points. Where's the research? Where's the attempt at insight? All I seem to here is, "Well, the liberals do this and the Democrats do that." Stop setting up straw men and tackle the argument head on.

Karl Rove's lawyer may tapdance around the legality of his actions -- right now, he seems to be focusing on the phrase "knowingly", somehow twisting this around to bely the idea of "ignorance of the law is no excuse". The fact is that Karl Rove should never have been privy to the name of active CIA agents, and he should never have been handing out this kind of false information to his pet cadre of journalists.

And I cannot imagine how any single one of you can just sit there and try to explain away or excuse his actions. I thought you all loved America? I thought you all were united in your War on Terrorism?

Does your partisanship really mean you have to turn a blind eye to everything??? Can not a one of you stand up and say, "I support the President, but Karl Rove needs to go?"


Okay, this is getting extremely tiring, and this will therefore likely be my last post in this thread. In this I am not even refering to the fact that your assertions about the the legality of Mr. Rove's actions were shown to be utterly wrong. I am speaking about the constant whining and bellyaching about what 'conservatives on this forum do.' More specifically, the falsification you engage in. There is not a monolithic conservative bloc, nor do most, if any, of the conservatives here regularly use the type of arguments you seem to always ascribe to them. It is not true and I really wish you would stop it completely. Does it happen at times, from both sides? Yes, of course it does, though usually after some personally thoughtful posts have already been made, again from both sides. Your claim that the rebuttals invariably revolve around some 'talking points' is as wrong as you earlier were in this thread.

For what it's worth, the only talking points I personally read are bi-weekly DNC ones, and a weekly email I receive concerning some of the more left blogs and websites. (On a related note, check out the recent article from the Journal about how they are hurting the Democratic party). It is funny how many of them I have seen used in this forum, including from yourself in the past.

I leave with my post from the first page of this thread, just in case you missed it the first time.

And I will stand by my statement. If he, or any official, violated the law, the should pay the price. I still haven't seen whether or not any law was broken here.
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Old 07-11-05, 11:44 PM
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The revelation that Karl Rove was the source who leaked Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA agent to Time's Matt Cooper probably comes as a surprise to exactly nobody. After all, dirty tricks have been the hallmark of Rove's political career since he was a teenager.

As this story continues to unfold over the next few weeks, Republicans are going to try to parse every word Rove ever uttered about the case. They're going to dissect every letter of relevant law trying to find a loophole to prove that Karl Rove is innocent.

But let's make one thing perfectly clear: Rove's secret outing of Valerie Plame put partisan politics above the security of our nation. He chose to reveal Plame's identity as a CIA agent, with no thought to the consequences to American national security, simply because it provided an opportunity to smear her husband.

And this is part of a pattern. When Democrats proposed creating the Department of Homeland Security, Republicans fought it until they saw a partisan advantage to exploit in the 2002 elections. When the September 11 Commission was trying to get the facts about the terrorist attacks on our soil, the administration fought them every step of the way.

And the war in Iraq is a disaster today because President Bush and his team have consistently chosen to score political points instead of doing the right thing.

And that, ultimately, is what this is about. It's about an administration that chose to ruin a woman's career, expose a CIA agent, and smear an ambassador's name all for the sake of spreading more lies about a threat that never existed.

The Bush administration will do anything -- absolutely anything -- to further its partisan politics. Don't you wish they'd put that kind of effort into protecting America?
Just one of the most recent 'talking points'. Sounds quite familiar, or is that just a coincidence?
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