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Armitage admits he was Novak's source

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Armitage admits he was Novak's source

Old 07-15-05, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
White Water was about sex?

Casa Grande was about sex?

Travelgate was about sex?

Filegate was about sex?

I believe you're a little confused.
What happened with White Water?

What happened with "Travelgate"?

What happened with "filegate"?

Sex, sex, sex.

Not so confused, really.
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Old 07-15-05, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by X
I have no interest in attacking Wilson other than where his testimony and public statements conflict with the truth.

But there remains the question as to why was he given early retirement from the Foreign Service at the age of 48 when the lowest age it is supposed to be granted is 50. Not to mention where he was ambassador -- Gabon. Hardly the place a star is sent, and his low rank in the Foreign Service doesn't belie that.

So I suppose you can start your quest for the quality of his work there and work backwards.
You claim that you're not interested in attacking Wilson, but you still do. Or that anything other than where his story conflicts with "facts" is all that you're interested in, when, clearly, you imply there is a some reason he ended up in Gabon (was that the only place he was ambassador to?) that suggests he wasn't well thought of. And you bring up his low rank, which hardly has anything to do with where his story doesn't jibe with the facts.

Clearly, the man's past is relevant.

There are pages of this thread that are filled with people, both from the left and right, who've gone out and posted facts. That hasn't seemed to resolve the debate one way or the other.

However, If you really want me to, I can post comments Bush 1 made about Wilson's job under him.

You see, I don't think it would do me any good to start a "quest" about the quality of Wilson's work. I am perfectly happy with what was said about him by his former employer, George Bush Sr.

Everything I've seen or read from him was positive. Maybe he's a liar too. I don't know, but I can't prove to your satisfaction that Wilson had an impeccable record and was well thought of until Bush 2 didn't like what he had to say about Iraq.


From the NY Times article that was written before the leak:

"In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake a form of lightly processed ore by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."

Mr. Wilson never states the VP asked him to go to Niger. Republicans as recently as yesterday said that he did say just that.

In fact, he only states that he was informed that the VP's office had questions. How do you know that he wasn't told this by the CIA? And even if the VP's office didn't have questions about the intelligence (not really believable and, if true, would only make the VP look like he wasn't interested in finding out the truth), Wilson could have been given that information by the CIA who mistakenly thought the VP's office gave the orders.

Just starting from there, with all the lies from the Republicans about what Wilson claimed and the twisting of his words out of context and working forward, it makes me wonder why the need for all of the lies about who asked him to go or if his wife was involved in the decision for him to go, if this guy was only bumbling nobody who came back with a report that no one took seriously in the first place?

If his incompetence speaks for itself, why out his wife or make up lies about what he's actually said and not said?

Also, Rove was clearly mad at the guy. Now everyone on the right is screaming that she wasn't a covert agent AND that she made no secret about her working for the CIA (the meat guy at my grocery store knew she was with the CIA). It was so much in the public domain in Washington that Novak knew and Karl Rove, who had a personal interest in finding out everything there was to know about Wilson, so to beat back the story about Niger by Wilson in the Times, and Rove didn't know who Wilson's wife was when some many other people with less of a reason to know did?

Seems pretty unbelievable to me. And I don't care if Rove is fired or not. I don't really get why the democrats want him fired. What do they beleive he won't be able to do from an office in Texas that he's currently doing in the White House? He'd still be on the phone to the President and making all the important policy decisions that he makes now.

Last edited by dolphinboy; 07-15-05 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 07-15-05, 08:59 PM
  #353  
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Originally Posted by dolphinboy
You claim that you're not interested in attacking Wilson, but you still do. Or that anything other than his where his story conflicts with "facts" is all that you're interested in, when, clearly, you imply there is a some reason he ended up in Gabon (was that the only place he was ambassador to?) that suggests he wasn't well thought of. And you bring up his low rank, which hardly has anything to do with where his story doesn't jibe with the facts.

Clearly, the man's past is relevant.

There are pages of this thread that are filled with people, both from the left and right, who've gone out and posted facts. That hasn't seemed to resolve the debate one way or the other.

However, If you really want me to, I can post comments Bush 1 made about Wilson's job under him.

You see, I don't think it would do me any good to start a "quest" about the quality of Wilson's work. I am perfectly happy with what was said about him by his former employer, George Bush Sr.

Everything I've seen or read from him was positive. Maybe he's a liar too. I don't know, but I can't prove to your satisfaction that Wilson had an impeccable record and was well thought of until Bush 2 didn't like what he had to say about Iraq.
Let me refresh your memory...

Originally Posted by dolphinboy
I'm wondering if you can, in the spirit of bi-partisanship, show any evidence of Mr. Wilson's shoddy work, lack of credibilty and questionable motives when he was working for George Bush Sr.?

Or did he just develop all of these character flaws recently? Recently, meaning AFTER he publically disagreed with this administration.
You asked, I gave you a lead. You can pursue it if you want.

If I were interested in it I wouldn't wait for your permission to get into it. I doubt anybody but you, the sole person who has asked about his "shoddy work", gives a crap about his past.

But when you ask for something don't attack the person who tries to provide it.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:00 PM
  #354  
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Originally Posted by dolphinboy
What happened with White Water?

What happened with "Travelgate"?

What happened with "filegate"?

Sex, sex, sex.

Not so confused, really.
I believed 10 people went to jail for White Water.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:09 PM
  #355  
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Originally Posted by Myster X
I believed 10 people went to jail for White Water.
And I'm sure that those 10 people where why you brought up White Water, "Filegate", and "Travelgate".
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Old 07-15-05, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by X
Let me refresh your memory...

You asked, I gave you a lead. You can pursue it if you want.

If I were interested in it I wouldn't wait for your permission to get into it. I doubt anybody but you, the sole person who has asked about his "shoddy work", gives a crap about his past.

But when you ask for something don't attack the person who tries to provide it.
Wow, you're sounding a lot like a white house press secretary now.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:20 PM
  #357  
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Originally Posted by X
Let me refresh your memory...



If I were interested in it I wouldn't wait for your permission to get into it. I doubt anybody but you, the sole person who has asked about his "shoddy work", gives a crap about his past.
Let me refresh YOUR memory

Originally Posted by Pharoh
The issue of WMD in Iraq, and my thoughts on that matter, have no bearing on this specific case. Iraq's forays into Africa looking for uranium, the independent analysis of those forays, Mr. Wilson's shoddy work in Africa, his credibility and motives, Mr. Rove's credibility and motives, and Ms. Plame's status and involvement in the case are what matters.
I guess my name is Pharoh and I'm the sole person who's interested in Mr. Wilson's "shoddy" work or thinks it's relevant.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dolphinboy
What happened with White Water?

What happened with "Travelgate"?

What happened with "filegate"?

Sex, sex, sex.

Not so confused, really.

You're the one that made the statement that Kenneth Starr was about sex (book).

Whitewater & Casa Grande were about fraudulent land schemes.

Neither filegate nor travelgate were about sex.

Therefore, you're either confused or you believe in the tooth fairy.

Which is it?
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Old 07-15-05, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
You're the one that made the statement that Kenneth Starr was about sex (book).

Whitewater & Casa Grande were about fraudulent land schemes.

Neither filegate nor travelgate were about sex.

Therefore, you're either confused or you believe in the tooth fairy.

Which is it?
The fact that I believe in the tooth fairy should have nothing to do with what I post here.

White Water and the other issues were listed had nothing to do with anything other than getting Bill Clinton.

And they did get him. For sex.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:36 PM
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but he did lie under oath right?
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Old 07-15-05, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Myster X
but he did lie under oath right?
About lying about sex, yes, he did.
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Old 07-15-05, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dolphinboy
Let me refresh YOUR memory



I guess my name is Pharoh and I'm the sole person who's interested in Mr. Wilson's "shoddy" work or thinks it's relevant.
We have been addressing his shoddy work in his mission to Niger. That's part of the current topic. And Niger is in Africa.

The references showing his shoddy work and what a bipartisan Senate committee thought of it have been presented several times in this thread.

Thinking you were not woefully out of touch with what has been discussed and presented as supplemental reading materials, and that you specifically mentioned about shoddy work while "working for George Bush Sr.", I could only only assume you wanted to know more about his previous endeavors.
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Old 07-15-05, 10:00 PM
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Well it seems that Rove was just trying to warn reports
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../cia_leak_rove
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Old 07-15-05, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dolphinboy
The fact that I believe in the tooth fairy should have nothing to do with what I post here.

White Water and the other issues were listed had nothing to do with anything other than getting Bill Clinton.
Nonsense!

The investigation of Whitewater and Castle Grande begin with the investigation by the Resolution Trust Corporation - established by the Congress to investigate the failures of savings & loan institutions during the late 1970s & 1980s.

During this investigation, the government establishment corporation discovered the failure of Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan in Little Rock, Arkansas. Further investigation revealed Whitewater, and the fact that the governor of Arkansas & his wife had invested in this land deal with the president of Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan. and his wife.

Therefore, the charge that Whitewater was just about getting Bill Clinton is simply not factual.

A former governor of Arkansas, Jim Guy Tucker, an Asst. U. S. Attorney General, Webster Hubbell, and others went to jail as a result of this investigation of Whitewater, the Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan, and the Rose Law Firm - which Hillary Clinton was a partner in, as was Webster Hubbell & Vince Foster.

But I digress from the topic of this thread.
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Old 07-15-05, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
You're the one that made the statement that Kenneth Starr was about sex (book).

Whitewater & Casa Grande were about fraudulent land schemes.

Neither filegate nor travelgate were about sex.

Therefore, you're either confused or you believe in the tooth fairy.

Which is it?
I don't think any of those incidents have to do with character assassination i.e. Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson. (I could add Paul O'Neill too). Travelgate and Filegate were alleged scandals not character assassinations.

The three people above were highly respected until they dared speak out against the Bush administration.
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Old 07-15-05, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by X
We have been addressing his shoddy work in his mission to Niger. That's part of the current topic. And Niger is in Africa.

The references showing his shoddy work and what a bipartisan Senate committee thought of it have been presented several times in this thread.

Thinking you were not woefully out of touch with what has been discussed and presented as supplemental reading materials, and that you specifically mentioned about shoddy work while "working for George Bush Sr.", I could only only assume you wanted to know more about his previous endeavors.
You assume a lot.
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Old 07-15-05, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
Nonsense!

The investigation of Whitewater and Castle Grande begin with the investigation by the Resolution Trust Corporation - established by the Congress to investigate the failures of savings & loan institutions during the late 1970s & 1980s.

During this investigation, the government establishment corporation discovered the failure of Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan in Little Rock, Arkansas. Further investigation revealed Whitewater, and the fact that the governor of Arkansas & his wife had invested in this land deal with the president of Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan. and his wife.

Therefore, the charge that Whitewater was just about getting Bill Clinton is simply not factual.

A former governor of Arkansas, Jim Guy Tucker, an Asst. U. S. Attorney General, Webster Hubbell, and others went to jail as a result of this investigation of Whitewater, the Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan, and the Rose Law Firm - which Hillary Clinton was a partner in, as was Webster Hubbell & Vince Foster.

But I digress from the topic of this thread.
Nonsense? But you only brought up 2 of the 4 issues.

Does the nonsense also apply to "Filegate" and "Travelgate" or were they also not intended to bring down the President?

I think by the time Ken Starr was involved with White Water (the time I was referring to), that it was only to get Bill Clinton. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize.

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Old 07-15-05, 10:38 PM
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Absolutely it applies to filegate & travelgate.

The Clinton White House was in possession of (ultimately) 1200 + FBI raw data files on people - mainly Republicans. That's a violation of the law. Charles Colson went to the slammer for the possession of one of these type of files.

Ken Starr was appointed by a 3-judge panel and given the authority to investigate these matters by that panel and by the Attorney General of the United States -Ms. Janet Reno.

I readily admit the investigation concentrated far too much on 'Monicagate' which did have its genesis in sex. Starr can be blamed partially for the neglect of the other things that should have been investigated far more thoroughly such as filegate. However, a couple of his assistants are probably more to blame than is Starr. Starr's principal problem was that he begin to like the attention that the media gave to him too much, and felt as if he had to answer publically every bad thing the Clintons and their surrogates said about him & the investigation. In addition, a great number of leaks came from folks involved in the investigation. This did not help.
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Old 07-15-05, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
Search Inside is temporarily unavailable.

Anyway, has Cheney's office disputed that it asked the CIA to look into the report that Hussein was trying to buy uranium from Niger?
no idea, and to be honest the search results didn't really seem informative either way. but there had been questions about the first chapter so I figured I'd try to find some actual info from the book
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Old 07-15-05, 11:46 PM
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As mentioned in the Washington Times peice X posted, USA Today is reporting that Plame does not appear to be covered by the Identities Protection Act. FYI, the two attorneys giving there opinion are the same two that wrote a similar opinion for a Washington Post column back in January.

One of the attorneys, Victoria Toensing, speculates that the investigation, like many before, is now more about the cover up than the original 'crime', which may not have been a crime at all.
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Old 07-16-05, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by wmansir

One of the attorneys, Victoria Toensing, speculates that the investigation, like many before, is now more about the cover up than the original 'crime', which may not have been a crime at all.
There's a real non-partisan person that I'd trust if I was seeking to find the truth about something or someone.

That would be like me saying, "James Carville speculates..."

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Old 07-16-05, 10:01 AM
  #372  
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My God dolphinboy!! THAT'S THE POINT!!

This is all partisan, same as with Bill Clinton, same as Kerry (Swift Vets anyone??) with anyone who gets in power & gets corrupted from it.

My disgust (and if the Dems keep this up, I believe the public majority too) is from people demanding Rove's firing/resignation when "Hey Clinton? Hey Dems? Pot - kettle - black."
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Old 07-16-05, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by OldDude
First, someone needs to confirm Plame worked undercover within the preceding 5 years. Even Wilson admits she was no longer under cover on the date Novak published.

Nevermind, X nailed that shut above.
Whether or not she worked undercover in the preceding 5 years may have an impact on whether the law was violated.

But she still maintained a NOC cover which became useless thanks to the Novak column. That was a United States intelligence resource which was destroyed because of a leak. It may not have been illegal to destroy that intelligence resource, but it should be grounds for dismissal and grounds for loss of clearance.

Edit: And I in no way mean to imply that the person who leaked it was Rove. If we've got an accurate report of Rove's Grand Jury testimony, and if Rove didn't perjure himself (I have no reason to believe he did), then the leaker was not Rove.

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Old 07-16-05, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonF

But she still maintained a NOC cover which became useless thanks to the Novak column. That was a United States intelligence resource which was destroyed because of a leak. It may not have been illegal to destroy that intelligence resource, but it should be grounds for dismissal and grounds for loss of clearance.
Somewhere in the past day or so, I saw a story that claimed she was brought back in 1996 because her cover had been blown by some other incident. I should have posted or bookmarked it. I think it involved some other spy but I can't remember the details.

Edit: The Internet knows all. This is NOT the one I read, but another version of it.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...1/221829.shtml
In fact, the myth that the Intelligence Identities Protection Act was violated in the Plame case began to unravel in October 2003, when New York Times scribe Nicholas Kristof revealed that she abandoned her covert role a full nine years before the Novak column.

"The C.I.A. suspected that Aldrich Ames had given [Plame's] name [along with those of other spies] to the Russians before his espionage arrest in 1994," reported Kristof. "So her undercover security was undermined at that time, and she was brought back to Washington for safety reasons."

The Times columnist also noted that Plame had begun making the transition to CIA "management" even before she was outted by Novak, explaining that "she was moving away from 'noc' which means non-official cover ... to a new cover as a State Department official, affording her diplomatic protection without having 'C.I.A.' stamped on her forehead."

Kristof concluded: "All in all, I think the Democrats are engaging in hyperbole when they describe the White House as having put [Plame's] life in danger and destroyed her career; her days skulking along the back alleys of cities like Beirut and Algiers were already mostly over."

Last edited by OldDude; 07-16-05 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 07-16-05, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mosquitobite
My God dolphinboy!! THAT'S THE POINT!!

This is all partisan, same as with Bill Clinton, same as Kerry (Swift Vets anyone??) with anyone who gets in power & gets corrupted from it.

My disgust (and if the Dems keep this up, I believe the public majority too) is from people demanding Rove's firing/resignation when "Hey Clinton? Hey Dems? Pot - kettle - black."
My God Mosquitobite!

Why isn't your disgust for the Repubs not holding hearing after hearing on the issue of the leaker, as they would have if it was Kerry or Clinton's white house that had the leaker?

If Kerry of Clinton had promised to get rid of anyone who had anything to do with this leak and then found out their top advisor was involved, even in the smallest capacity, and didn't fire him or her, the Repubs would be demading the same things the Dems are and having hearings and investigations left and right.

The Repubs are whining that somehow the Dems aren't interested in getting anything important done just because they're talking about the Rove issue so much. If that's so, then the Repubs must not have done one single thing during all the Clinton investigations and hearings.

Something is only partisan if you let it be. While our gov't may always act in the lowest possible way, that doesn't mean that you have to. Unless the special prosecutor has something on Rove, I don't think that he should be fired. That's a non partisan comment. I've made that comment in this thread already. Why don't you try one?

I think you have the pot-kettle-black thing turned around.
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